Let's HANG Mel Gibson!

Fear is a normal human reaction to outside stimuli which is perceived by the senses to equate to imminent danger.

Lightning strikes close by.
A child totters on the edge of a cliff.
A bad dream scares a child.
When the non-swimmer cannot touch the bottom in the river.
To be close to an exploding shell or rocket in time of war.

To have the normal human reaction of fear is not sin.

I find it difficult to believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and grew through infanthood, childhood, and his teenage years without experiencing the normal human reaction of fear.

Could you give me that chapter and verse again where the Bible says ALL fear is sin?

 

sharpSword, what about these verses?

Genesis 22:11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." 12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

De 4:10 especially concerning the day you stood before the Lord your God in Horeb, when the Lord said to me, 'Gather the people to Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.'

Lu 5:26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, "We have seen strange things today!"

Lu 7:16 Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen up among us"; and, "God has visited His people."

Ac 13:26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.

2Co 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter 3: 12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." 13 And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed. "And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled." 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Proverbs 2:3-5 For if you cry for discernment, Lift your voice for understanding; If you seek her as silver And search for her as for hidden treasures; Then you will discern the fear of the LORD And discover the knowledge of God.

Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard {it,} and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name.

Isaiah 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve,

Proverbs 1:33 But whoever listens to me will dwell safely, And will be secure, without fear of evil."

2 Timothy 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


A healthy respect and dread of what was to come would only be 'human'. There's many different types of 'fear', including a holy fear of God. Jesus did not 'dwell' in fear nor have a 'spirit of fear' but since HE knew what was to come, including being apart from God His Father... I do believe He dreaded it. To not do so would make him not fully human.

Diane

 

Good point Diane!

 

Dear Dr. Meadows,
Thanks very much for your illuminating contributions.
Certainly the greatest sacrifice the Lord Jesus paid was when He bore our sins and in some unfathomable way was separated from God the Father.
Yet a number on this board who are opposed to the Passion movie seem to be in great doctrinal error. (Not all, of course.)
That is, they are Docetists, to varying degrees, denying the humanity of Christ. The Lord Jesus was both completely God and completely sinless Man, yet many seem to think that means His physical suffering was no big deal.

American Christians are more prone to this idea than Christians of some other times and places, because we have been so relatively immune from suffering and shielded from even viewing it.

Karen

 

Being startled is not being afraid.

Shocked by explosion is not fear.

Disinclination to undergo suffering is not fear.

Secular psychologists propagate this "fear is healthy" lie due to their lack of faith in God.


"Love casteth out fear, for fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (See Epistle of First John for this.)

Christians should fear nothing. Fear is opposite of faith. Jesus did not feel fear, lust, hatred, racism, sexism, gluttony cravings, etc.

Jesus felt tiredness, heat, cold, anger at unbelief and obstruction to His ministry.

Peter feared drowning when walking on water. Disciples feared sea storm, which Jesus calmed.

Psalms proclaim God delivers us from all our fears.

Why ask for verses on specific words when you can look up the words in a good exhaustive concordance? Just a suggestion for further studies and situations in future, Hardsheller.

 

Diane, Charles, Phillip, Karen, etc,

In the OT verses that were quoted, there are three words translated as fear. They are yare, rogez, and pachad.

In the NT verses that were quoted, there are three words translated as fear. They are phobos, phobeo, and deilia.

Now, I would ask that you all to find a verse about Jesus that uses these words to describe Him and His "state" and then we can call it a day.

I will tell you what you may find though:

Luke 5
10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear [phobeo] not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

Luke 8
50 But when Jesus heard [it], he answered him, saying, Fear [phobeo] not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

My question is, was Jesus a hippocrite? Would He tell someone not to do something, and then do it himself? When the "apostles" in the movie stated that "Jesus" was fearful, that was a denial of His divinity. When the "Jesus" in the movie said "I AM", and no one fell back as they did according to scripture, it was the same as denying His divinity, and also changing the Word through a false re-enactment. By saying that He had fear, when scripture does not validate that, is in effect, doing the same thing.

If you check out the Greek word for agony in Luke 22:44, [agonia] you will see that it does not mean fear or fearful. He was hurting for the condition of the world.

 

Well, this must be some of the 'slice, dice and stomp' Phillip talked about. Well, this is nice.

Where to start. Ok. Charles. You said "Is it sinful to have fear? No, what the bible indicates is sin is to not trust that God will take care of me! Your insistence on the literal word here robs you of its meaning!"

Well, actually it is sinful to be afraid of death.
It is sinful to fear those who kill the body.
It is not sinful to have holy fear of God.

And fear as defined by S & T is what you are saying Christ exhibeted----yet none of you provide any Scripture to prove your statements which say Jesus was afraid... timid...fearful...spiritually weak...terrified....

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Re 21:8 But <de> the fearful <deilos> 1169. deilov deilos, di-los'
from deos (dread); timid, i.e. (by implication) faithless:--fearful

same word found in matthew 8:26, mark 4:40

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Mt 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Now unless you can state the Scripture showing Jesus feared something...you are changing the Word of God to suit your emotions of what you might feel in that situation.


Stephen was stoned....he was not afraid of death....Jesus said the servant is not greater than the Master.

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world

 

Christ was possibly tempted to be afraid ....huge difference than actually giving in to the fear, and unbelief.

1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Charles you said that you rejected the writings of Emmerich....so that is a poser for me...if you reject the writings....you have to pretty much dump the movie..cause most of the scenes are from her, agreda or bridget writings.

So if you reject emmerich writings you are rejecting for example:

"Jesus" tells the apostles that he does not want the others to see him like this while he is acting afraid. The apostles even comment "What's wrong with him?" "He seems afraid". This is not scriptural, however, it is "mystical". Then he says "Hear me father...rise up and defend me...save me from the traps they have set".

The "she" devil appears aka Jesus called him the father of lies..but another 'divination attitude
It taunts "Jesus" telling him that no one can take on the sin of the world as he stands fearful in the garden. He lies on the ground, prostrate before her with his face buried in the ground while she continues to taunt him by asking "Who is your father" and "Who are you?"

Now no one has bothered to address this but I will ask this again.

Mel Gibson said he wanted the imagery and pictures to do the talking basically. In that scene the imagery is that Jesus is bowing before satan and the imagery makes me think that he is worshipping at satans feet.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Do you think that is an image that should have been left in the movie? Is there some Scripture that would have us believe Jesus did that? And even the concept, that Jesus was afraid.

The fact of the matter is --you are all parrotting and are in agreement with the writings of Emmerich, Agreda and bridget....which came from divination with devils, with regard to Jesus being in fear and groveling in fear at the feet of satan in the movie. Now since that is also the imagery that mel gibson wanted to leave you all with....now would be an appropriate time to show the Scripture supporting this imagery.
Not by adding to the Scriptures, with emotion and wishful thinking, that it is how it was...show the actual Scripture that Is how it was.

 

Charles you said "And by the way catholics neither worship Mary nor consider on an equal level with Christ."

You obviously did not read the information I pasted in from the Official vatican sites and their official documents and liturgy.

Ok if you are are visually focused try this.

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/index.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/prayer.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/News/explains.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/news.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/News/protect.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/index.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/multimedia.htm

Vatican photos of the entrustment event.> http://www.vatican.va/news_services/or/photo/ph08_eng.html
does not seem to be coming up-nor in cache
however there are the same photos on a website
.http://biblelight.net/entrusting_the_world_to_mary.htm

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/english.html


If you would like, I can try to find the information from more Catholic sources.

 

Some of you are claiming that these verses state that Jesus was afraid and fearful

Isaiah 53:4-9
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

And you apparently think that when He was in the garden what he experienced was fear.
That is not what is stated in the Word of God, but it is stated by the demonicly sourced writings of emmerich and agreda etc. to which most are apparently stating they are in agreement with,...while saying they reject them.

Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {tempt: or, try, or, put to trial, or, proof}

Lu 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus rebuked Peter and declared to Peter, to get behind Him as he was a stumbling block.

Matthew 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. [also Mark 8:33, Luke 4]

Jesus said He was heavily burdened with sorrow and deep grief, not fear, in the Garden. He, who was without sin, was going to deal with the sin of all mankind.

Matthew 26: 37....and began <archomai> to be sorrowful <lupeo> and <kai> very heavy <ademoneo>.38 Then saith he unto them , My soul is exceeding sorrowful <perilupos>, even unto death <thanatos>.... [KJV]

From Strong's Concordance: exceeding sorrowful <perilupos>

4036. perilupov perilupos, per-il'-oo-pos
from 4012 and 3077; grieved all around, i.e. intensely sad:--exceeding (very) sorry(-owful).

3077. luph lupe, loo'-pay apparently a primary word; sadness:--grief, grievous, + grudgingly, heaviness, sorrow.

very heavy <ademoneo>

85. adhmonew ademoneo, ad-ay-mon-eh'-o
from a derivative of adeo (to be sated to loathing); to be in distress (of mind):--be full of heaviness, be very heavy.

sorrowful <lupeo>

3076. lupew lupeo, loo-peh'-o
from 3077; to distress; reflexively or passively, to be sad:--cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow(-ful), be (make) sorry.

Jesus taught to never be afraid of those who could kill the body. God is without hypocrisy. He did not fear death..He came to destroy death.


Jesus was tempted....he did not succumb to any temptation...he rebuked it and was sinless.

 

I would suggest if you reject the emmerich and agreda writings ...that you have to in all good conscious reject the movie....or make allegiance to their writings as well.

Because you cannot have it both ways. The scenes you are in agreement with are those inspired by the demonic...whether it be Jesus being beaten in the garden, hanging from a bridge or groveling in fear before a 'she devil.' If you want to be in agreement with that....you are making serious spiritual statements.

If you want to deny the divinity of Jesus by having Him say I AM in the film and not having anyone fall back... by agreeing that He would need to get strength from His mother and Simon to be able to complete His chosen task... by agreeing with mystical writers who describe our Lord and Savior in all these ways.

You cannot serve two masters, because you will love one and hate the other..and that is according to Jesus Christ, my Savior and Lord.

The first step is admitting....

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

 

I commend everyone in on this debate, but hope it is "on thread."

This is a very interesting subject, did Jesus fear, is fear a sinful condition.

Semantics, definitions come into play here.

And yes, I've lived in New York City for a some years, over a decade ago, and the explosions, garbage can cannons in middle of streets, bottle rockets zimming past your face, rooftop versus rooftop 4th of July rocket "fights"...4th of July in NYC is almost like Baghdad today! Ha!

I've had gangs surround me, and I warded them off, I've had a gun pointed at me at close range.

I've gone up against lots of weapons and bullies and drunk killers. I've been in some brutal fisticuffs scuffles. Women, drunk, fight more viciously than men, BTW.

Wish I could tell all the stories.

I've also had panic attacks, so I know what a physical "fight or flight" and physical "fear" is versus mental faithlessness and lack of trust in God's protection.

Jesus may have "dreaded" the suffering He was about to go through, but did not "fear" it in any sense.

Fear, as spiritual attitude, is sin. Natural reluctance and misgiving about torture or burning at stake, etc. is simply disinclination, not terror or fright.

Semantics, dear friends, semantics is king here.

 

Phillip you are funny. Never lose that sense of humor in debate. Debates need comedy quite often.

but friend, I honestly really think Mel Gibson is one sick person. I really think he inflicted way more savagery on Jesus than was historically or biblically accurate.

I know---that is debated quite heatedly.

But why would Mel get off on inflicting so much brutality, even adding silly junk like shoving poor Saviour off bridge to dangle on a chain.

This excessive, hellywoodish gratuitous violence is par for the course in R rated ultra-sadism films nowadays...to do this to our Lord and Saviour...

...well, I hardly know what to say. I have, believe it or not, actually wept as I thought about the sadistic excess of violence lavished on the filmic "Jesus" in this horrid film THE PASSION.

I have asked God to forgive us for tolerating such an irreverent monstrosity in evangelical America.

You probably disagree with my attitude, but I feel great sorrow concerning this film and that phony cultish fringe Latin Rite church fanatic Mel G.

I think February 25, my birthday, the release date of this film in America, is a dark day for Christendom.

That's my opinion, bro.

 

My church bought out 4 showings in a theatre that seats 450. (4 x 450 = 1800 tickets). People at church purchased the tickets in multiples of two, with the idea being that each church member bring an unsaved friend or relative. The demand for tickets far exceeded the 1800 available seats.

So far the feedback is amazing. Many people saw the film as our guests who have never/would never set foot in our building. They saw a vivid portrayal of Christ's love for sinners. Many accepted Jesus during the discussions which followed what they had seen. How some Christians can be so critical in denouncing this film I have no idea. Granted it's not perfect (it's produced by imperfect men), but I have no doubt it's being used for God's Glory. SEE THE FILM first, and then try to criticize it.

Does it bother Christians who are critical of this film that they have allied themselves with the liberal media in their opposition?

 

Forgive me LarryN if I don't jump up and down and clap my hands like a charismatic brother...

...about people attending a deceptive, disgustingly ultra-sadistic mockery of Jesus' last 12 hours.

When the Anti-Christ comes, people will be raving ecstatically over the peace in the Middle East, and his brilliant, compassionate plans for the world...

...whooooopeeeee.

This film reminds me of what's coming down the road soon enough.

Tell me people are lining up at a good church to hear the real story of salvation...

...and I'll clap and dance a jig and hoop and holler Hallelujah.

Feedback from a hypnotic heretical film is great?
Sorry, I don't buy the hype, bro.

And the "liberal media" is fine when it agrees with evangelical viewpoint, but is rotten when it praises Clinton or Kerry?

This "liberal media" bashing is silly. yes, media is often liberal, but so is churchianity dude, haven't you noticed all the gay bishops and refusal to preach against witchcraft?