Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity.

The context shows it is speaking to any man willing to listen.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Verse 20 says if "any man" hear his voice and open the door, he will come into him. Verse 22 shows Jesus is speaking to all men as well, and not simply this church. In fact, we are to listen to what Jesus said to "the churches" not just Laodicea.

No, Jesus is speaking of living persons here. He distinguishes between those who are living but spiritually dead, and those that are physically dead.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In verse 25 Jesus is speaking of living persons who are spiritually dead. Those that hear his voice and believe shall be made spiritually alive. It is happening NOW.

In verse 28 Jesus is speaking of the physically dead. Notice he does not say "and now is" as he said in verse 25. Here he is speaking of the future resurrection. Notice in verse 28 he speaks of "all that are in the graves" shall hear his voice.

So verse 25 is speaking of spiritually dead persons who now hear his voice and shall live, in verse 28 he is speaking of the future resurrection of both spiritually living and dead.

You fail to see the distinction, but it is there.

 

I don't fail to see the distinction, because the distinction you desire to find doesn't exist in the Rev. passage.

But you see one, because you are taking out of context the message to the Laodicean church.

Here is the context:


Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou may be rich; and white raiment, that thou may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Do you see the underlined words???

Christ is NEVER speaking to the lost in this passage. It is directly to the church.

Christ never tells the lost to be "zealous and repent," that the lost were "lukewarm," and to "overcome."

Christ never tells the unsaved He will "spew them out" of His mouth.

Christ is speaking to a body of believers in whom He finds nothing to praise, says He will rebuke, and that any believer that overcomes will be rewarded.

The underlined words are NOT to the unsaved and are not applicable to the unsaved.

Christ NEVER invites the unsaved person to sit down with him on the throne.

Christ overcame, and the believer is to overcome. The unsaved are NEVER encouraged or even told to "overcome" anywhere in scriptures.

Christ stands at the door of the people of the church of Laodicea and knocks. He does not "knock" to enter the hearts of the unbeliever.


Look at what the results of opening the door are - to fellowship at the Lord's table! This is what believers do. The unsaved have no business at the table and are incapable of opening any door to invite the Lord to such a gathering.

Christ is stating to the church that although they are loathsome and devoid of any recognizable spiritual growth, He desires fellowship with them. He is willing to set aside their pathetically pitiful posturing with the worthless world, and, by the church taking personal responsibility (zeal) and repent, He is willing to sit down to dinner with them.

You desire to bringing John as proof text is like using a mixed metaphor.

 

Agedman;
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou may be rich; and white raiment, that thou may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Do you see the underlined words???

Christ is NEVER speaking to the lost in this passage. It is directly to the church.
[/quote]
I have to disagree hear. Christ isn't speaking to the Church as in the body of Christ but is speaking to a specific church. In a specific country. I have yet to go to any church were everyone was saved. The lost are lurking around us constantly.
Think about it. An overcomer is such because he is saved he has over come sin. This passage says. To him that overcomes will does this mean they haven't overcome sin. I believe it does. We over come sin in Salvation. If we don't we aren't saved.
MB

 

Angel is messengers it is talking to the messengers within that church and my prayer is that we don't keep such a beautiful message within the church, but the messengers do what the are called to do spread the message.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


In tears I pray that we don't keep such a beautiful message to ourselves.

 

I agree, but in the view of many, it is also held that the 7 churches represent types of assemblies to be found in all areas of the world. Some also hold that the 7 churches represent a series or pattern of decline in the true church sometimes referred to as church ages.

Doesn't matter. Christ had his disciples and one of them was the betrayer.

The passage was still written to the church - not the lost.

Sadly, an unsaved person is NOT saved by overcoming sin, nor is overcoming sin a direct result of salvation.

If an unsaved person could be saved by overcoming sin, and that overcoming sin was a direct result of salvation, then keeping the ten commandments would save, and one could also live sinless. Both conditions are clearly not Scriptural.

History would record many "reformers" that were not saved.

Overcoming is a matter of submission. The believer is shown by the Holy Spirit an area that needs attention, and the believer responds.

More to the point is why the Laodiceans were in trouble. They lived with assumptions that were false claims. They viewed wealth, health, and position as evidence they were "right with God," and "obedient to God," and seemed unaware that in doing so they had shut out Christ.

That is why Christ said, "you are neither cold or hot." They were believers, but had embraced emotionalism over spiritualism, and attempted to validate their view by using health and wealth. They claimed the power of God, and showed their proof by physical rather than spiritual accomplishments.

They were believers with everything the world would expect to show they were blessed of God, but from Christ's perspective were destitute of what really mattered.

Remember Paul said, be careful what you build upon the faith God has given? The Laodiceans weren't careful at all.

 

Actually, the "angels" referred to in the seven churches of revelations are the "leaders" - those to whom a letter from the apostle would be delivered, opened and first read.

It is within that context that the letter to that specific assembly is delivered and read before all in the assembly.

In doing so, it is hoped (as evidenced by the rewards offered each assemblies' members) that the assembly will respond favorably to the correction.

Whether they did nor not is left for history to determine. Whether, in our modern age, a church assembly and individual members will examine themselves in light of the truths is still held out (in my opinion) as hoped for by Christ.

 

If that is how you want to see it then you can do with it the way you want to. I see it as a message to the messengers to stop being luke warm and spread the hope found in the message to that church and that that message continue till Jesus comes or it reaches to the ends of the earth.

 

Many scholars would disagree with you.

Barnes Notes

Matthew Henry

JF & B

All of these scholars (and many more) believe Revelation 3:20 a universal offer of salvation to all men, and not just the church at Laodicea. They agree with my interpretation, and disagree with yours.

 

Here is what Spurgeon wrote concerning Revelation 3:20

Spurgeon believed this verse applied to all sinners, and not just the church at Laodicea.

 

If Jesus is standing on the outside of His body, knocking, wanting to come in, something's wrong...........

 

There seems to be a problem that some would consider "sinners" as unsaved.

They are, but so are believers.

The Laodicean church was/is a church filled with those who thought they were authentic and viewed their health and wealth as evidence that they were blessed of God.

However, they were not. They were sinners - blind, ignorant, saved, sinners; NOT needing salvation, but needing true fellowship with the redeemer.

That is the context of the letter.


More to the point is that there are teachers and preachers willing to take a single verse out of context and attempt to make a universal appeal from that verse. Such does not follow contextual principles related to determining the application of any Scripture. To do so may often lead to doctrinal error.

For example, if one were to use the same technique of applying a single verse out of context to make some appeal, one could use Peter's statement in acts "repent and be baptized" as proof that a person must be baptized in order to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit.

We agree that is not the truth because of the context and the balance of other scripture teaching.

However, whole denominations (Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventists) were born out of mistakenly taking verse(s) out of the context.

The context of ALL the letters in the Revelation are to the churches. They are specific to the church and to be read in the church. The unsaved are not partakers of the message of these letters. As those churches are reflective of churches found in every period of time, the letters may be applicable to those assemblies, too. As some would hold that the letters indicate a timeline progress of the church history showing a downward progression into world approval and world acceptance, the Laodicean church may represent the modern period of assemblies.

If there is a "universal" appeal, it must found elsewhere in the scriptures. It is not found in the Laodicean letter.

 

Yes I agree that it is. How does what you qouted of me disagree with this position?.
MB

 

I first read your whole post and then came back and read it yet again because you are contradicting your self.
In effect above bolded to point out what you are saying here. That

you tell us they were not. Then you turn around and say they were saved below. Either they were or they weren't

You do this your self. You're doing it again to try and distract the message of verse 20. You've implied that Laodicea was lost and saved at the same time and denied a clear invitation for man to allow Christ to save them.

I believe Laodicea is a picture of the Roman Catholic church. They have become wealthy and high minded not needing grace from Christ but instead from the fictitious holy mother of god. It has become lost not saved because they left there first love long ago. They are luke warm because there works are but straw and stubble. They do not have the Holy Spirit they are deceiteful and scheeming back biters.
You seem to think every church is saved in this post sadly they aren't. They may have started out right but over time because of the lack of evanglism the christians all died out leaving nothing but a shell of it's former self.

Nonsense; You are taking scriptures and rationalizing them until they no longer have any semblence of truth.

If this were true Then how is it that this church in Laodicea actually existed?

Really;
Ok I give you another invitation from scripture.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
It's plain and simple and to the point. It's addressed to every man with the problems of this life. His rest can only be found in Christ.
MB

 

No, there is no contradiction. I have clearly stated that the Laodicean church were believers. Christ would not have given the instructions that he gave to unbelievers.

Perhaps the choosing was a poor word. "Authentic" was used to mean in what they held as the truth in comparison to what Christ showed them. I was not using the term "authentic" as an indicator of the state of belief compared to unbelief, but in what they (the Laodiceans) considered valid and reliable proof of their being "right with God" (as some would state) in contrast to what Christ would consider proof.

authentic: reliable, trustworthy

Your statement is one to which I would both agree and disagree. The same thinking that the Laodicean church held as valid proof of showing the "approval of God" (health and wealth) can be said of many modern church denominations and even local assemblies. IFB had a problem with considering "soulwinning" success as the same proof of "approval of God."

Does this mean that the Bride of Christ is not to be found within those assemblies? Nope.

The Word will always be effective and even in the hands of unfaithful, ungodly folks.

Again, I would state that I contend within every assembly in which the Scriptures are viewed, there are the saved.

For instance: The USSR allowed local assemblies to gather, however they did not allow for the free use and even possession of the Scriptures. It is the Word that is powerful.

The Laodicean church received a letter of condemnation from Christ. Just the writing of such a personal communication indicates there were believers in the assembly.

Did the church die out. Yes, just as all those to whom the letters were written.

It is not "nonsense." Show me ONE letter written by Paul, Peter, James, and John that was NOT written to believers.

The church did exist, just as the Ephesian church did exist. And we can take from what was written specifically to those churches and extrapolate truth.

Oh my, you are again taking a single verse out of context and trying to make it fit your thinking.

Context:
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Who are the laborers who are heavy laden? Are they not the workers of the field? Those whom the Lord would choose to work, whom the Lord would grant the reward for the work. Are they not the believers?

Who can learn of Christ? Are not the believers given the Spirit to instruct them?

Is Jesus saying to those who would slander Him, beat and abuse Him, condemn Him, crucify Him that they cannot come to him? Of course he isn't. Christ is declaring the final estate upon all those that God has given Him.