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Featured lies, evil and chaos.

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by 37818, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    God is infinite good.

    Lies needs truth to exist.
    Evil needs good to exist.
    Chaos needs order to exist.

    God created finite good things.

    Finite good things which are not infinite, can be hurt, was the creation of evil.

    Isaiah 45:7.
     
    #1 37818, Jul 10, 2019
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  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Well-Known Member
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  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Well-Known Member
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    The logic escapes me here.

    Evil is not an offshoot or side effect of the holiness of God. It was never God's desire that evil pollute his universe nor our hearts.

    Did he know evil would come to be? Yes. But God did not create it directly or indirectly.

    This logic could be used to say that the inventors of the automobile created drunk drivers.
     
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
    • [ASV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
    • [CSB] 7 "I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
    • [DBY] 7 forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
    • [ESV] 7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
    • [HNV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
    • [NASB] 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
    • [NET] 7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
    • [NIV] 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
    • [NKJV] 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things].'
    • [NLT] 7 I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
    • [RSV] 7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.

    [Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form[H3335] the light,[H216] and create[H1254] darkness:[H2822] I make[H6213] peace,[H7965] and create[H1254] evil:[H7451] I the LORD[H3068] do[H6213] all these [things].

    "create" = [H1254] = בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; to create, shape, form; (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject).

    "evil" = [H7451] = רַע raʻ, rah; from H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease(-ure), distress, evil((-favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, × great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Including feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.)

    Isaiah 45:7 COULD be referring to the creation of "evil", but is more likely referring to the creation of bad events (misfortune).

    Note that the KJV and older translations use "evil" while the newer translations chose words like "calamity" or "disaster". This matches the drift in the English language where "evil" one had the definition of bad or unfortunate, but not immoral ...

    • a very unpleasant or harmful situation or activity: "Higher taxes may be a necessary evil."
    The verse itself supports this from its poetic structure. Note the pairs of opposites that God claims responsibility for ...
    • (v.6) rising of the sun and West
    • Light and Darkness
    • Peace (prosperity, good times) and Evil (disaster, calamity).
    "Moral Evil" is not the opposite of peace/prosperity/good times, but "disaster/calamity" is the opposite.
    So the verse is actually not a statement that God creates EVIL, it is an OT affirmation of ...

    • And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. [Romans 8:28]

     
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  5. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner Active Member
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    Heat is the motion of molecules. Cold is the word we use to describe lower rates of that motion.
    Light is electromagnetic radiations and photons. Darkness is the word we use to describe lack of those things.

    Sometimes I think of evil in a similar sense - not a "thing" in itself, merely the absence of God, or perhaps more accurately, God's permitting harmful things to occur as part of His perfect plan. God was present as the serpent deceived the woman, but I don't think the woman, and later the man, were mindful of Him when they chose to disobey. We can and do choose to act as if God isn't watching, but as Psalm 139 states, He is always watching..
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Those three points are to be understand as fundamental axioms.
    Evil is not possible without a finite good that can be hurt. When God did acts of creation in those 6 days. What God made was good. But was not infinite good as God is. Therefore such finite good can be hurt. Evil to such good is possible.

    No. If the cars were so good to be indestructable, what difference would it make to the car? If good is infinite good, evil could not affect it. Only God is infinitely good.
     
    #6 37818, Jul 10, 2019
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Those modern translations fail. The Hebrew is the same Hebrew for "evil" in "and evil," referring to the "knowledge of good and evil." The argument is one of interpretation. And if there is evil in creation, God created the creation. Evil needs good to exist.
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Evil is still not the opposite of peace as darkness is the opposite of light.
     
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Here are some other verses that use the same Hebrew word translated “evil” or “disaster” in Isaiah 45:7

    • [Gen 26:29 KJV] 29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou [art] now the blessed of the LORD.
    • [Gen 28:8 KJV] 8 And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father;
    • [Gen 31:24 KJV] 24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
    • [Gen 40:7 KJV] 7 And he asked Pharaoh's officers that [were] with him in the ward of his lord's house, saying, Wherefore look ye [so] sadly to day?
    • [Gen 41:3-4, 19-21, 27 KJV] 3 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favoured and leanfleshed; and stood by the [other] kine upon the brink of the river. 4 And the ill favoured and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favoured and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke. ... 19 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them, poor and very ill favoured and leanfleshed, such as I never saw in all the land of Egypt for badness: 20 And the lean and the ill favoured kine did eat up the first seven fat kine: 21 And when they had eaten them up, it could not be known that they had eaten them; but they [were] still ill favoured, as at the beginning. So I awoke. ... 27 And the seven thin and ill favoured kine that came up after them [are] seven years; and the seven empty ears blasted with the east wind shall be seven years of famine.
    • [Gen 44:29 KJV] 29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
    • [Exo 21:8 KJV] 8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
    • [Exo 32:12, 14 KJV] 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. ... 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
    • [Lev 27:10, 12 KJV] 10 He shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good: and if he shall at all change beast for beast, then it and the exchange thereof shall be holy. ... 12 And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou valuest it, [who art] the priest, so shall it be.
    • [Num 11:1 KJV] 1 And [when] the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard [it]; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed [them that were] in the uttermost parts of the camp.
    • [Num 13:19 KJV] 19 And what the land [is] that they dwell in, whether it [be] good or bad; and what cities [they be] that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in strong holds;
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not at issue in this thread. What is at issue is evil cannot exist without there being good.
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but it is a philisophical rather than theological question because the Scripture in the OP makes no such claim. It merely claims what Job did ... "The LORD gives and the LORD takes away, Blessed be the name of the LORD."
     
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  12. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    This might be addressed philosophically, but is not here a philosophical proposition. It is clearly theological and dependent on God alone being intrinsically perfect, eternal, infinite, and the sole source of creation (John 1:1-3).

    Unless there is falsehood or evil in God, then such statements follow inevitably, with one added point: All-sovereign God must purposely relinquish some control within his creation. Otherwise, neither evil nor falsehood could ever exist, other than in the knowledge of God.
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Job.
     
  14. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Word.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah was quoted because God said He "created evil."
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No God didn’t ... you might want to go back and reread my posts. If you are going to claim that the verse means something that it doesn’t, then the change in the meanings of “evil” from including a “bad event” like a drought to “malicious will” is very relevant and your claim is an unproven opinion. You can’t just say “that is not what this topic is about” and continue to support your position with a false interpretation of scripture.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Then evil does not and cannot really exist. And Isaiah 45:7, ". . . . וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע . . ." ". . . and create evil . . ." regardless of the contrast is false.
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Already asked and answered ... See post #9.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    And Isaiah 45:7, the LORD said, ". . . . וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע . . ." ". . . and create evil . . ." regardless of the contrast or English translation.

    The issue is that good needs to exist which can suffer loss.

    Full circle.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Look at Genesis 41 where the EXACT SAME WORD was used ... were those EVIL cows?
     
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