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Featured Limited Atonement: God's Power to Save

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021.

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  1. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    Limited atonement is the hardest doctrine of Calvinism to accept. For this reason, there are four-point Calvinists:
    What is Amyraldism / Four-Point Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org

    Everyone limits the atonement in some way. Those who believe in unlimited atonement limit the atonement’s power, that Jesus died for people who end up in hell.

    Those who believe in limited atonement limit its extent, that Jesus died only for His elect, who will without fail be saved, so not a drop of Jesus’ blood was wasted.

    In His torture and death, Jesus suffered the full measure of God’s wrath for sin. Limited atonement means that not an iota of Jesus’ suffering was endured in vain.

    If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.



    Until they repent and believe, it's impossible to tell who God's elect might be, so the Gospel must be preached indiscriminately. Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15, Luke 14:23
     
    #1 Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021
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  2. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Limited atonement means an absolute salvation, for whatever is atoned for the wrath is taken away.
    God has no wrath towards believers, only unbelievers.
    John 3:36
    He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    Romans 2:8
    but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

    Romans 5:9
    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

    Romans 9:22
    What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

    Ephesians 2:3
    among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    Ephesians 5:6
    Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10
    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Hebrews 4:3
    For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    That last verse is very profound, speaking of God's works, your particular salvation is His work which was done before time began.

    The judgement there on them was experienced in time, but the decision before time.

    Acts 15:18
    “Known to God from eternity are all His works.
     
    #2 Scott Downey, Jul 15, 2021
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The real problem is wrong notion of either unlimited or limited. When in fact the limited Atonement is of the unlimited Atonement. Without unlimited Atonement no one can know one has any part in the Atonement.
     
  4. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    That's why limited atonement cannot be accepted without also accepting total depravity and irresistible grace. If you believe that which is required for salvation, and if there's evidence of regeneration in your life, that's because God's grace has given you saving faith as one His elect.

    2 Peter 1:10
    Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

    There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election. (Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.
     
    #4 Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021
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  5. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    Why do I post things in favor of Calvinism? Because of things like this:

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    View attachment 302348
    [​IMG]

    If there weren't so many anti-Calvinists mislabeling us as heretics, there wouldn't be such a need to clarify what Calvinism actually teaches.
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    "For many be called, but few chosen." Matthew 20:16. How can one know one is saved if one is not among the atoned?
     
    #6 37818, Jul 15, 2021
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  7. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    No one who desires to be saved will be turned away.

    John 6:37
    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

    If you've already repented and believed, that's a sign you are among God's elect.

    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek "helko," to drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as innumerable as the stars:

    Christians, by faith, are children of Abraham:

    While the atonement is limited in extent, it covers innumerable children of Abraham.
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You argue as if unlimited atonement is true. Matthew 22:10-14, ". . . So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."
     
  9. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    No, I am not. God did not promise Abraham that every person who ever lives would be his children, and yet His children, in sovereign election, are as innumerable as the stars.

    Of the "many" who hear the outward call of the Gospel, "few" are chosen to receive the inward call of faith.

    When you look at the trajectory of all human history, from beginning to end, the number of God's elect will be as innumerable as the stars, as God promised Abraham.

    That number, however, will not include everyone who ever lived, because that would be universalism, which the Bible teaches against.

    Revelation 5:9
    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation
     
    #9 Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    An issue. For many are called and few [are] chosen. On the premise of only limited Atonement being true. Would mean the many called not chosen would mean Christ did not spill one drop of blood for them making their call truly vain.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    From your interpertation, not mine
    You make a distinct of an "outer" and an "inner" call. The word of God makes no such distinction
     
  12. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    There is a difference between the general call and the inward call. The general call is the indiscriminate preaching of the Gospel to all people, because we don't know who is elect and who isn't.

    The inward call is the calling of the Holy Spirit, upon hearing the Gospel, that unfailingly leads the elect to ultimate salvation.

    Romans 8:30
    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    If there is a call, of those predestined, that unfailingly leads to justification and glorification, then it's different from the general call of indiscriminately preaching the Gospel.

    When you look at the trajectory of all human history, from beginning to end, the number of God's elect will be as innumerable as the stars, as God promised Abraham.

    That number, however, will not include everyone who ever lived, because that would be universalism, which the Bible teaches against.

    Augustine, Luther and Calvin, on their teaching about predestination, weren't like the Jehovah's Witnesses, limiting the number of those who enter heaven to 144,000.

    Unless you are a universalist, you believe that only Christians will be saved. That's what Calvinists believe as well, and the number of saved Christians will be many, as Jesus promised.
    Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45

    Limited atonement is just the teaching that Jesus didn't die for non-Christians who never accept the Gospel. It's not some scary or esoteric teaching. Jesus died as a "ransom for many," those who accept the Gospel, not for those who reject it.
     
    #12 Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021
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  13. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    The only reason why I post things about Calvinism is the amount of anti-Calvinist prejudice that exists today. If people just stopped calling Calvinists heretics, there wouldn't be need to clarify what Calvinism actually teaches.
     
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well the Biblical truths Calvinism cites I believe. My beliefs are similar but not Calvinist. As I explained, the unlimited atonement includes the limited atonement.
     
  15. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    Limited atonement is simply the teaching that Jesus didn't die for those who live their entire lives rejecting the Gospel, so that not a drop of Jesus' blood was wasted. The more we sympathize with the sufferings of Jesus, the more likely we might be to accept limited atonement.

    The Passion of the Christ (2004)

    Tubi is a legal source to watch free movies online.
     
    #15 Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021
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  16. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    Since it would be utterly tragic if even a drop of Jesus' blood was shed in vain, the only acceptable alternative to limited atonement would be universalism, which the Bible clearly teaches against.

    If you are among God's elect, His people, Jesus purchased you with the shedding of his blood.

    Luke 1:68
    Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed His people

    The only proper response is your love and obedience. If Jesus died for the full weight of your sin, then the more you sin, the more you add to His sufferings.

    Ephesians 4:30
    And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    Isaiah 53:5
    But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.

    If your apartment building was burning down, and a firefighter died while saving you but not your neighbor, what would your proper response be?

    Should you gripe and grumble about how unfair it was that the firefighter gave up his life for you, but not your neighbor? Or should you be thankful for his sacrifice?

    There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election. (Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.
     
    #16 Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021
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  17. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    It's because I love Jesus that I believe in limited atonement, that not a drop of His blood was shed in vain.


    [​IMG]
    John 10
    15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
    16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
    26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep
     
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly do not see this distinction being made by the word of God.
    And it does not make "an only" limited atonement true. It makes the "general" call which excudes the atoned intentionally in vain.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    John Owen had argued in his denial of the general redemption, "To what purpose serves the general
    ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect
    of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned?"
    Romans 8:34 comes to mind, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, . . ."
     
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  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Member

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    So I have to conclude that you do not think God was right when He Gave His son for the world. Joh 3:16
    And you really do not agree the Christ Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2

    Calvinism's problem

    The bible tells us Christ died to take away the sin of the world (Joh_1:29), and He came to call sinners to repentance (Luk_5:32) and since all are sinners (Rom_3:23) and He died for all (2Co_5:14-15; 1Ti_2:6; 1Ti_4:10; 1Jn_2:2), and will draw all people to Himself (Joh_12:32) and those that believe will be saved (Joh_3:16) and those that reject the gospel will be lost. (Joh_3:18) yet, Jesus, upon a Calvinistic presumption, died only for the unconditionally elect, then all people without qualification are unconditionally elected unto faith and final salvation. In this, then, Calvinism promotes Universalism.
     
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