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Limited Free Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 27, 2019.

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  1. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    You are a joke. Still avoiding the issue because you can't actually address it. HOW was the MEANING changed? Why are you avoiding this?
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 9:16 clearly teaches fallen people can choose to will and to work to be saved.

    Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches fallen people were seeking God, they were in the process of entering the kingdom.

    James 2:5 teaches God chose those that love God.

    Fallen people can not understand the spiritual solid food of the Spirit. But they can respond and grow on the milk of the gospel. 1 Corinthians 3:1
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Our faith in Christ is based on information provided by God through the gospel.
    2) His faith, your faith means it is the faith of the individual, and not a supernaturally gifted faith.
    3) Yes, our pre-salvation faith in Christ is worthless, it is God alone who turns a sows ear into a silk purse, by crediting it as righteousness.
    4) Our limited free will springs from our limited spiritual ability, we are able to understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but not spiritual solid food, which is discerned only with the help of our indwelt Holy Spirit.
    5) The concept of scripture is we were chosen corporately before creation, and individually during our lifetime.
     
  5. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    1. It's not blown out of the water but affirmed by that verse.
    2. You have yet to show how the meaning is changed whether you use for salvation or to be saved.
    3. Saying the same thing over and over without answering the argument proves that you can't answer the argument and therefore keep trying to deflect. Unfortunately, I'm not going to let you off with that nonsense.
     
  6. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    How in the world does it show that? It says it depends on God, not man.
    How in the world does this verse say that? It does not say that at all. It says he chose some TO BE RICH IN FAITH. In other words, He gifts the faith to them.

    This verse was written to people who were already saved. Doesn't help your position at all.
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Sir, you are charging me with your repeat-o-matic behavior.
     
  8. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    You literally posted the exact same thing multiple times and still have yet to answer the argument presented to you. It is telling of your inability to defend your unbiblical position.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Scripture says men will and work. Your bogus doctrine says they do not.
    2) If you think "to be" is part of James 2:5, there is nothing anyone can say.
    3) I know what the verse says, Paul spoke them as "men of flesh." Therefore by logical necessity, men of flesh can understand spiritual milk. No need to shout taint so.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To say I did not answer the question is to post falsehood. I even posted the answer in red. Your posts contain nothing but insults calculated to change the subject.

    1) Our faith in Christ is based on information provided by God through the gospel.
    2) His faith, your faith means it is the faith of the individual, and not a supernaturally gifted faith.
    3) Yes, our pre-salvation faith in Christ is worthless, it is God alone who turns a sows ear into a silk purse, by crediting it as righteousness.
    4) Our limited free will springs from our limited spiritual ability, we are able to understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but not spiritual solid food, which is discerned only with the help of our indwelt Holy Spirit.
    5) The concept of scripture is we were chosen corporately before creation, and individually during our lifetime.
     
  11. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I saw your red highlights but it did anything BUT answer the question. How is the meaning changed?
    So you admit Faith is given by God?

    Based on?

    What in the world is pre-salvation faith? Where do you get such a concept?
    Based on?
     
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  12. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Who says that biblical reformed doctrine says men do not have a will? Nobody.

    Again, you ignore the entire context and historical background to prop up your unbiblical teaching.
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    David, why are you continuing to post absurd claims?
    Did I say man does not have a will? Nope so you are deflecting. Who do you think you are fooling?

    Did I say they "altered the text" Yes, verbs are not nouns.

    The absurd claim faith is instilled through irresistible grace is bogus. But our faith is in or toward Christ and His gospel, both provided by God.

    His faith refers to the faith of the person designated by "Him."

    Pre-salvation faith is pre-salvation faith.

    Paul spoke to them as to men of flesh teaching men of flesh can understand spiritual milk. Your claim that this view goes against some other unreferenced scripture is twaddle. The sad fact is your view adds to scripture to alter it to fit with your man-made views.
     
  14. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I'm not.

    Did I say you said man does not have a will?
    And yes, how does what they "altered" change the meaning? Please explain. You are the only one deflecting here.

    Show me in Scripture what this is.

    Still ignoring context I see.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note the absence of content, just a series of inane questions for the sake of subject change.

    Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.

    13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    The case is closed, our individual election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth.
     
  16. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    None of my questions changed the subject.

    HOw many times are you going to write the same thing without offering an explanation of how the altering of the text changes the meaning to avoid a supposed conditional election?

    Chosen you for salvation and faith in the truth. Now you finally get it. You were chosen for salvation, you were chosen to have faith. Glad you have come to the biblical side.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.

    13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    The case is closed, our individual election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    There has been some discussion that "from the beginning" refers to the election of Ephesians 1:4, which occurred before the foundation of the world or before creation. But "from" refers to the "beginning" and since the "beginning."

    Now of course the next thing to ask is "from the beginning of what? Some suggest creation, but more likely is from when the gospel was first brought to the Thessalonica. Or to expand it a bit, from the beginning of the New Covenant.

    Why not go back farther? Because no one was set apart in Christ until after He gave His life on the cross. The New Covenant is in His blood.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Nothing but pure speculation based upon opinion.

    No foundation.
     
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "taint so" post offering no alternate view.

    1) No one was transferred into Christ before He died on the cross.
    2) From means since or after when used temporally.
    3) Some suggest "the beginning" refers to creation, but more likely "beginning" refers to when the gospel was first brought to Thessalonica. Or to expand it a bit, from the beginning of the New Covenant.
    4) Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    Summary, we were chosen from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood which was shed on the cross, for salvation through faith in the truth.
     
    #120 Van, May 10, 2019
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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