Lordship Required for Salvation??

Whoops! I didn't run fast enough! The thread hijacker with his snide remarks is back. And this time with a malicious and demeaning attack based on total ignorance of the position that he is attacking.

Robert, had you attacked me, even most viciously, I would have graciously let it slip by, but this malicious and demeaning attack and its implications about a brother in Christ who died for the sake of the Gospel can not be allowed to slip by. Now let’s obey the rules and get back on topic!

Dr. Bob, if you wrote what you did in your ROLE AS AN ADMINISTRATOR, I apologize for my comments.

 

Amen Pastor Larry,
While salvation may have past, present and future aspects, it is one salvation, effected by Christ, and will result in a changed life.

No one will ever be perfect, no one will ever attain the goal of a sinless life, but those who are true posessers of saving faith will evidence it by bearing fruit. That being said, the fruit itself is not effective toward salvation. The thief on the cross was effectively saved by his faith in Christ, he did not evidence a changed life via either baptism, or the opportunity to change his lifestyle.

Our salvation is a past event, in that we have been saved from our sin, we are no longer in bondage to it in that we are being saved by the work of the Spirit in our lives toward progressive sanctification, and we look forward to the future hope that we have of glory, still, our salvation was effected once for all. You can come up with however many facets to salvation you would like, its one salvation, there is no second work of grace per se.

 

And this is what Lordship salvation is ... You cannot hold on to sin and get saved. You have to acknowledge the lordship of Christ over thta area of sin, whether you call it lordship or not.

 

Dr. Bob wrote,

Robert, I am talking about this comment that you posted in THIS thread:

Is, or is this not, a reference to an article by Watchman Nee that was discussed on this board in ANOTHER thread? Yes or no?

 

I would like to discuss about Lorship Salvation.

Years ago, I first heard this by reading a book wrote by John MacArthur.

Throughout years, I hear arguements about Lorship Salvation.

Late Dr. Curtis Hutson does argue about Lorship Salvation in a leaflet. He strongly disagree with it.

I did read through whole book of "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John F. MacArthur Jr.

He discusses about Lordship Salvation.

During in that time, I have so many things that I disagree what Dr. MacArthur saying.

But, years later, I realized he is correct. Tomorrow night, I will show you of his comments with verses. His comments sounds to me, these are not security salvation.

Recently, I hear they saying John MacArthur teaching security salvation.

I think he is changing of his beliefs and teaching lately.

I would like to say something about Romans 10:9-10.

Early in my Christian life back in year 1989. I learned of Romans 10:9-10 show us, it speak of salvation, when after confession our sins to Jesus Christ.

No one witness me how to become saved in year 1988, whilst I was a Lutheran. I was searching the truth in the Bible by myself. I did read and study through whole book of Revelation by myself. On that night, August 17, 1988. When I continued reading Revelation chapter 20 and 21. I can't wait looking forward for Jesus coming again, and we shall live in New Jerusalem, and on new earth. But, I was scare of being miss Jesus, New Jerusalem, and new earth, go to lake of fire. I was scared of Revelation 20:11-15 talking about great white throne, and cast into the lake of fire. So, I bowed down and praying to Jesus in my bedroom at 11 pm. I talked to Jesus in sign language. I asked Christ to wash all my sins away through his blood, and do not want go to the lake of fire, and miss Jesus, I asked Jesus to come into my heart. I prayed to Jesus for about 30 minutes. At 11:30 pm, after I finished praying to Jesus, I got into a real overjoyful, then go sleep. Then, the next day, I took drive lincense test. I got passed the test 12 hours later after I made confession to Jesus.

To be honest with you, I does not saying to him, "Lord", because I already KNOW Jesus is the Lord, because I learned that Jesus IS the Son of God, whilst I was a Lutheran.

Not necessary for a person being required to say, "Jesus is Lord" in a sinner prayer.

For an example, suppose a person witness gospel to a seven years old girl. Does a seven year girl actual understand that Jesus is the Lord? No. But, she BELIEVES in Jesus Christ, wants to be saved. So, she asked Jesus to saved her without being called him, "Lord". Yes, I do believe Jesus saved her. Because Christ interests in girl's HEART. Most people claim, they are saved, but not true saved, because of thier mind, not in heart.

I would like to discuss with you on Romans 10:9-10 more deeper.

Often, I hear baptists use Romans 10:9-10 for soul winning method. Nothing wrong with Romans 10:9-10 used for soul winning method. I think, the reason, they often use Romans 10:9-10 to prove us, of security salvation, and also prove us, that we cannot be saved by doing good works, only simple believe in Jesus Christ according Eph. 2:8-9. Also, I think the reason, they often use Romans 10:9-10 for security salvation. Baptists saying of Romans 10:9-10 prove, that person is being already saved when onced after confess with mouth and heart unto Lord Jesus Christ. In another word, they saying of Romans 10:9-10 give us the PROMISE when if we confess our sins with our mouth and in our heart to Jesus Christ then will be saved. In their interpreting of Romans 10:9-10: Romans 10:9-10 promises us, a person will be AUTOMATICALLY or OFFICALLY SAVED at once when AFTER confess sins to Jesus.

That's why, often, many baptists use Romans 10:9-10 and even verse 13 too.

I think probably, many baptists do not realized what Romans 10:9-10 actually talking out.

Notice word, "SHALT" is a future sense word.

Romans 10:9 does not saying, "thou are saved", it says, "thou SHALT BE saved."

I understand it speaks of a person is not being automatically or offically, a person is ALREADY SAVED at once when after a person confess to Jesus.

Romans 10:9 tells us the promise if a person believes in Lord Jesus Christ WILL BE saved.

Another word, a person must continue believING in Christ throughout life till the end then shall be saved.

Let you know, during Apostle Paul's period, there was no chapter and verse in the scriptures. Paul wrote them as epistles.

I believe Romans chapter 10 and 11 was in connecting together as contextually.

Because Romans chapter 11 talking about a person could be cut off IF a person being UNbelief - Romans 11:19-23.

That means, a person could be cut off, if stopped believing in Christ.

Now back to Romans 10:9-10.

I notice Romans 10:10 says, "For with the heart man believETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Word, 'believeth' means believing. It tells us, a person should abide and believING in Christ all the way till the end then shall be saved.

Also, it says, "believeth UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS".

Righteousness means, we should living godly and just walking with God, separate from the world.

I would like to show you of John 3:16. Christ said, "For God so loved the world, that ge gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believETHin him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Word, 'believeth' means believing. John 3:16 promises us, IF a person believing in Jesus Christ shall have eternal life.

Or, other word, if a person stopped believing in Christ, shall not have eternal life, go to everlasting fire.

What about Acts 16:31?

Acts 16:31 says: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT BE saved, and thy house."

A person is not being automatically or offically already saved at once when after a person onced believd in Christ, that's it.

It promises us, a person who believe in Jesus Christ WILL BE SAVED.

Matt. 24:13 tells us, a person must be endured all the way till the end THEN will be saved.

A person is not being automatically or offically already saved at once right after believed or confess to Christ. Christ tells us, that we must be faithfully, steadfast, endure, abide, believing, walking godly daily all the way through our life till we die or Lord comes. Or, other word, IF a person give up and quit serve the Lord, stopped believing Christ, will not be saved by the time, a person dies.

Rev. 21:7-8 warn us, "He that OVERCOMETH shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he SHALL BE my son. But the fearful, and UNbelievING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

It tells us, a person who is OVERCOMING(victory) will have eternal life, and person will be belong to Christ's, and person will be Christ's child. But, a person who is UNBELIEVING, will be cast into the lake of fire - second death.

That mean, if a person failed to have victory in the lifetime, and remain in unbelieving till by the death comes, will suffering the second death.

That why, Christ tells us, most of them who fight in the gate will not make it unto into the eternal life, will go into destruction - Matt. 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24, because of most people easily give up and stopped fighting in the spiritual warfare in the middle of the road, turn away from the Lord, into the world is on the way to destruction - everlasting fire.

Conclusion:

A person is NOT being authomatically or offically ALREADY SAVED at once when after confess to Jesus Christ. Romans 10:9-10 tell us, it PROMISES us, IF a person who confesses to Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in Jesus WILL BE SAVED.

Other word, IF a person being STOPPED believing in Jesus Christ, turn away from the Lord, while a person is remain without repent and continue unbelieving all the way till person's death will not be saved.

I always be serious and very restricted while read, intepreting, and study God's Word, I do not let take God's Word lightly like as average Christians do.

Obivously, there are so overwhelm in the Bible teaching us of conditional salvation. No way, that you might argue with these verses. Believe and accept what God's Word saying so.

Tomorrow night, I will show you many things of MacArthur's comments on verses in the book, what he saying. Probably, some of you already reading that book before. You might be surprised what MacArthur saying about salvation issue. I will show you what he saying tomorrow night. But, recently, I hear latest update on MacArthur's beliefs, he believes in security salvation. I will discuss about his teaching tomorrow night.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

There are 2 groups of Lordship Salvation.

1. The groups believe that the Lordship Salvation mean that you must make Jesus to control your life.

2. The groups believe that the Lordship Salvation mean that you must confess Jesus is Lord.

 

Askjo, saved people submit to the Lordship of Christ. Do you believe this to be true or false?

 

I agree Pastor Larry. This kinda reminds me of the rich young man who asked Jesus what he must do to be saved. Jesus told him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow him. The young man went away sad because he wasn't willing to give up the things of the world. James wrote that faith without works is dead. But he also went on to say that one would show their faith by their works .

I had a pastor who used the illustration one time that a man came forward and asked if he had to be baptized in order to be saved. The pastor responded that if that was the one thing that kept them from being saved, then yes. IOW, when God saves you, then you will want to obey God and do good works. Not only does he change your eternal destiny, but also changes who you are. You are transformed by the renewing of your mind. You become a new creation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Dr. Bob,

I most certainly owe you an apology. I have read your response here, and reread what you posted earlier, and I now see that I totally misunderstood your comment. I am radically sorry for misjudging you and for the comments that I made about you.

 

I have never seen any "Lordship" proponent that says anything different than this. I think this is exactly what lordship salvation is. It is the only kind of salvation there is.

 

I agree with both Dr. Bob and Pastor Larry assesments

 

I agree with Dr. Bob, Pastor Larry, Kiffin and Paul in 2 Corinthians 7:10.

 

"Teacher":OK everyone, what is it?

Student #1: It is long and pointed, it must be a spear.

"Teacher": Good, what else.

Student #2: You must be an idiot, #1 (Probably KJVO) it is big, flat, and hard. It is obviously a wall.

Teacher: If you are KJVO, #1, leave the class. Anyone else?

Mansfield: It is an Elephant!

Teacher: I thought I made it clear, you aren't allowed in here.

Mansfield: huh?

Whole Class: Mansfield's a cult member! nya-nya-nya-nya-nya.

Student #3: It is long, sturdy and flexible! It is a rope. I am convinced.

Student #4: You are all obviously under-educated. The esteemed Dr Blah Blah agrees with me that the original Greek word in the arsonist, presumtive text reveals it to be a large fan.

Teacher: (Excited) GOOD, #4!

Mansfield: It is an elephant.

Teacher: I'm sorry, let me make this clear. Mansfield! You get out of my sandbox! Shew! . . .And take your large pet whatchamacallit with you!

Mansfield: (Leaving) Come on Jumbo.

Student#5: Does anyone know where my tree trunk went? It was here a minute ago.

Teacher: Group Hug!

 

A big, supper tight elephant hug to Lacy!

Just kidding, Lacy!

By the way, Mansfield's elephant was really an invisible rabbit named Harvey. I just thought you ought to know that before you post again in this thread and make a fool of yourself like I did when I misunderstood one of Dr. Bob’s off-the-wall comments about some Baptist “friends” of his.

 

HELP! HELP! Its a snake!!!!

Mansfield: Clam down Lacy, It's just an elephant!

Teacher: (Really angry now!) Mansfield!

 

On another thread in this forum I wrote.

Sorry Lacy,

I don't see how we can limit access and/or participation in the thread to certain folks. This thread is contained within the Baptist Only section of the board. However, it is in the Baptist DEBATE Forums. Therefore, any professing Baptist many participate in the discussion.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator</font>[/QUOTE]Bob wrote:

I'm not trying to be difficult, but could I get some clarification here? Is there a rule or is it moderator descretion?

Lacy

Being dis-intregated makes me very angry . . .Yes very angry indeed.