Featured Love Alone Saves (Part 2)

The church of Rome ITSELF states that God will save those whose sincere devotion and faith to their religion allows God to account them as being part of the Church, so devout Jews and Muslims can be saved, but those like Me who rejectteachings of Rome are not!

 

What Yeshua says is not true, We consider all Christians denominations brothers and sisters.



Steaver if anything you are too LOOSE with your self imposed rules.

Galatians 5

14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


What act of love towards my neighbor is better then accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior? See your going about trying to alienate and divide things. You don't see love God or believing in Jesus INSIDE of loving neighbor, when you SHOULD.

Even the above statement says the whole thing is fulfilled.



We need to be clear on timeline of events. See ultimately I believe everyone WILL be Catholic, coming face to face with God.

Paul did not believe in Jesus Christ. Had no faith in Jesus, was killing christians, his mind was made up. Jesus Christ SAVES HIM by Divine intervention.

Now just because this event happens on earth that doesn't lessen the salvation of Paul, Christ saved him,

Paul rejected Jesus even persecuted him, Blasphemer, and Jesus STILL SAVED HIM.


You keep trying to force EITHER/OR and ONE WAY ONLY Theology.


You would probably argue That God cannot show any mercy or forgive at all to a Muslim or Atheist.

Paul himself tells us there was no status of Faith or actions to merit MERCY from God.


1 Timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


Jesus Christ demonstrates PERFECT PATIENCE.


Jesus also command NOT to follow blind faith, precisely on the issue concerning his divinity.


John 10

37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”



This is a far far cry from "Believe I am God and worship me OR ELSE!"

 

Jesus demonstrates perfect patience and His perfect love. He will decide on Judgment day who will be saved - yes Him! He sees things in people that others cannot or refuse to see. Mouthing words or making claims mean nothing to Him - the actions of our lives will be louder than words to Him.

Those who think they will be first will be last and those who seem to be last will be first - so says the Lord! So we should stop all our judgements as to who will or will not be saved - Jesus will decide!

 

steaver,

Catholics are "in conflict" because we are all living through a process of formation, a crucible of emotional, intellectual, developmental, and doctrinal clarification. We, however, are called to be obedient to the Church. This obedience in faith allows for the supernatural unity which Christ prayed for (John 17:20-23) to be a reality despite the unique subjective experience of each catholic. So it is that the Church, being a real body of believers and enjoying the principles of unity established by God (The same Doctrine, Hierarchy, Sacraments), carries on over the course of millennia under the safeguarding of the Holy Ghost. All of this is why the existence of conflict between individual catholics is a reflection of their personal commitment to obedience to what the Church teaches and little else. For even if a Pope were to present ideas which were in conflict with the Faith, it's the Church which would, in such a case, correct the Pope.

I did not claim that your statement was libelous. I considered the possibility that it would qualify as libel, which is the "publishing of a false statement which is damaging to a person's reputation." Surely here on a Christian site, to claim that another Christian believes that one can get to Heaven even if they reject Jesus could be seen as damaging to one's reputation, I'd say.

What Catholics believe, again, is that the grace merited by Christ is God's to apply. So the Church stops short of saying any one particular person is certainly in Hell. For that decision is between God and the individual. The Church acknowledges, too, that there exists the possibility that people who don't come to recognize Christ MAY receive the Beatific Vision. But even in such a case, such a gift would be coming to them through Christ and not according to any works, ethnic identity, or legal observance. For no person is "owed" Heaven.

Further, CS Lewis and others have written about a particular subtlety with regard to the question of what it really means to "reject" or "accept" Jesus. And that is this: When a person "rejects" Christ, he is on occasion rejecting a false caricature of Christ which has been presented to him by false teachers. His rejection, then, is a rejection which is justified according to the false picture of Christ which was presented to him. No one who encounters the true Messiah and obstinately rejects Him can receive the Beatific Vision.

Jews and Muslims (and anyone else) cannot be saved by love alone, period. Consider the following:

"...the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it... This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

As you can see, this passage from the Catechism includes an important phrase: "through no fault of their own". It is only when personal culpability does not obtain that a person can be understood to possibly be saved. Notice, the wording here. It says such people may achieve eternal salvation. In other words, the Church acknowledges the only way to Heaven (through Christ), calls all people to that One Way (Christ), and still acknowledges the fact that ultimately God is going to decide how the merits of His Son will be applied to each individual person. The passage does not say these people "do certainly" achieve eternal salvation. It suggests the possibility.

Finally, consider that last phrase "...those too may achieve eternal salvation." Notice the fact that the passage doesn't say how the merits of Christ will be applied to such people. It doesn't say specifically what God's work would have to be in order to welcome these people into Heaven or when it would occur. It simply, in acknowledgement of God's sovereignty, expresses the possibility that such may occur according to Christ's grace.

And though it is my impression that both utilyan and Adonia are indeed faithful Catholics who acknowledge and accept all the Church teaches to have been revealed by God, how they respond to this (if they choose to), regardless of what they say, will not change what the Church teaches.

I think it's important to consider something more directly here. It is true that the Catholic Church teaches that "a person cannot reject Jesus Christ and be saved." If someone beholds the true face of Christ and rejects Him, such a person cannot be saved. The subtlety here, however, lies in the personal culpability of each individual in his response to the Gospel as it's presented to him. I know a former Jehovah's Witness who avoids anything to do with faith of any kind and religion of any kind. Has she truly rejected the Lord? I don't know. She is certainly justified in being supremely frustrated with "religion" as it's been presented to her. Could she be saved? Only God knows what has gone on in her heart as she reacts to the nonsense presented to her as truth while growing up and becoming an adult. So as a Catholic I say that she "may" one day be saved. That's not the same as saying she "will" be saved or that "love alone" can save her. Her judgment will take place and it will be ultimately between her and God. For now I simply affirm the fact that if she is ultimately saved, it will be done according to Christ's redemptive work.

All Catholics proceed through this life, to varying degrees, out of perfect harmony with the Lord, His Church, and her teachings. Sometimes it's habitual sin which makes hypocrites of us. Sometimes it's ignorance. Sometimes it's simply willful heresy. Whatever the case may be, my identity as a Catholic is not predicated upon my ability to live, at all times, in full conformity to Church teaching. There is a profound and widespread disconnect between what the Church teaches and the practice of Catholics the world over. Practical failure on the part of Catholics and the objectivity of Church teaching, however, shouldn't be confused with one another.

Finally, what was the specific aspect of what I cited earlier from Romans 11 which you wished to challenge?

In Him,

Herbert

 

I am saying that God can do with us what He wants one way or the other at the appointed time. Yes I believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, but a mere claim on Him by any person is just words. According to you, all one has to do is speak the word and everything will be okay, right? Jesus wants us to live lives of positive action, He is the example.

I had to laugh some years back when Jimmy Swaggart said Mother Theresa was not saved because she did not have the same type of "born again" experience as he did. She lived a life of Christian love and action, while he was doing nasty things with a prostitute. Enough said.

 

I reject the notion of the word believe merely meaning acknowledgement of existence and identity in those passages.

Attempts to devoid Christianity of love is an act of evil.


John 3

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Nicodemus would have thought Jesus was an idiot if Jesus was talking in terms of acknowledgement of existence.



God can swear you are wicked and destined for damnation, and yet because of your behavior you will be saved.

Ezekiel 33

14And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.



know who Jesus Christ is.

1 John 4

6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Jesus Christ is Love.


So in turn your rejection of JESUS CHRIST ALONE you would disqualify yourself. In other words according to your own condemnation you yourself are a "NON-BELIEVER".

Because you don't believe in salvation by Jesus Christ Alone.

 

I have not rejected Jesus's words, because there are other words of His that need to be considered.

The True Disciple. "Not everyone who says to me , 'Lord. Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord', did we not prophecy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to the solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me you evildoers." Matt 7:21-23

Those people whom Jesus described above say that they believed, but what did Jesus say to them? I NEVER KNEW YOU! Then go forward just a few pages where Our Lord gives another lengthy discourse about this (Matt 25:31-46).

So what is more important, a mere profession of faith or doing the will of the Father? And who really are the righteous ones? What you seem to miss is that people who do not claim Christ can indeed be doing the will of the Father, and ergo, they are indeed proclaiming Christ through their deeds, not merely words.

 

1) How does God choose whom He will save?

2) What are the things God must decide before a person can be saved?

3) Can a person be pardoned by God of their sins if they attempt to come to God on their own merit or by a pathway other than the cross?

@Adonia, @utilyan, @AndyMartin, and all others, please answer these three question and show the scripture you use as text to legitimize your position.

 

1) herbert, is Christ God or is he just a man who worked hard enough to merit extra points from God?

2) If you have to work for God's favor, is God's response really a response of graciousness or is it a response of duty to the one who has worked hard?

3) Is grace unmerited favor given by God to whom He wills, regardless of the persons moral status?

4) Based upon your statement, what Bible passages do you have, which shows that Yeshua received grace points from God that God will pass out to others?

 

You sound like a Calvinist with these words. If only you didn't add to this...