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Featured Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    “And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.” (Romans 8:28)
    These were predestined, called, justified, and glorified (8:29-30).

    Those who truly love God obey Him by resisting temptations to sin!

    “God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
    Believers who endure temptation:
    ● love God
    ● chose to be obedient to Jesus (see below)
    ● will receive the crown of (eternal) life


    “Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
    So, don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.” (James 1:14-16)

    Believers who do NOT endure temptation:
    ● will fall into habitual sin
    ● will receive spiritual (eternal) death …
    UNLESS they sincerely repent (stop their habitual sinning).


    Those who really love Jesus obey Him
    “Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones who love Me.” (John 14:21)
    “All who love Me will do what I say.” (John 14:23)
    “Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.” (John 14:24)
    “When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love” (John 15:10)
    “You are my friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)

    Who gets to heaven who does not love Jesus,
    who is not His friend,
    and who does not obey His commandments?


    Slaves of sin -- OR -- slaves of obedience
    “… if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?”
    (Romans 6:16)


    “… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:51)

    “if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)

    “So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

    “Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God. But there is NO (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
    (from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, which was quoted as Scripture by early Christian leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria)
     
  2. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." ( Romans 6:18 )

    "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." ( Romans 6:22 ).

    "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." ( Jeremiah 32:40 )

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 )

    "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
    ( John 6:39 )

    " And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." ( John 8:29 )

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 )


    Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), sir, not a reward.:Cautious
     
    #2 Dave Gilbert, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  3. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Eternal life is a gift which can be rejected
    through NOT co-operating with the Holy Spirit,
    who is trying to sanctify us unto holiness!

    BACs can be estranged from Christ.
    BACs can fall from grace.
    BACs can draw back to perdition.
    BACs can lose salvation by not enduring
    in their faith until the end ...
    by not enduring persecution of Christians
    and/or
    by submitting to taking the mark of the beast.

    BACs can be thrown into the Lake of Fire
    ... cowards and habitual sinners,
    (who are NOT in the unbelievers group)
    in Revelation 21:7-8).

    ... and many etcs., but am I wasting my time?
     
    #3 Samuels, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:1-9 and its explanation in Matthew 13:18-23, as well as the parable of the "tares" in Matthew 13:24-30 and its corresponding explanation in Matthew 13:36-43?

    Do you know who the false brethren are in 2 Corinthians 11:26 and Galatians 2:4?

    Do you understand what "falling from grace" is in Galatians 5:4?

    Do you know what a false teacher is in 2 Peter 2?

    Do you know the difference between a child of God and a child of the devil ( 1 John 3:10 )?
    A foolish virgin and a wise ( Matthew 25:1-13 )?
    A "goat" and a "sheep" ( Matthew 25:31-46 )?

    How about "born again" and "dead in trespasses and sins" ( Ephesians 2:1-3 )?
     
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  5. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    OK, let's take this one ...
    please explain what it means.
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Those fallen from Grace are those who try to live by the Law. The Law cannot save. This is not speaking of those who are held in God's hands and are saved by Grace already.
    MB.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sigh, obedience is much more than fighting off temptations to sin. Not sure why that always seems to be the focus for some people.
     
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  8. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Yes, those fallen from Grace are those Christians
    who try to live by the Law. The Law cannot save.
    But, the point is ... they cannot be saved by
    believing in Jesus AND through living by the law.
    Jesus will NOT accept that "dual" belief system!

    It's quite difficult to fall from what you do not have!
    How can you fall from grace, if you do not have it?
     
  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    What it means to me?
    Similar to what MB said, but the entire passage deals with believers, not unbelievers.
    Christians who were listening to a false gospel, and believing it.

    I suspect you may disagree.
    But if it helps...
    I'll post the passage:

    "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
    7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
    8 This persuasion [cometh] not of him that calleth you.
    9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. " ( Galatians 5:1-9 )


    In Galatians 1, Paul is addressing the fact that they were being troubled by someone preaching a false gospel.
    We find later on, that it was one of works ( Galatians 2:15-21 ).

    Believers who go back to adding the requirements of the Law, obeying it, and thinking that Christ's finished work was not enough, are "fallen from grace" in their attitudes and beliefs about what God has accomplished for them at the cross...forgiveness of all trespasses ( Colossians 2:13-14 )
    No man can ever please God by keeping the Law ( Romans 3:20 ).
    It was never designed to absolve anyone of sin, but was the schoolmaster to lead the believer to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ).

    So, believers that are listening to false teachers who preach a false gospel of works, are "falling from grace"...believing that Jesus + works is what salvation is all about.
    Justification is by grace, not the works of the Law.
    They aren't falling from the grace of God back into eternal death, but are making Christ's work of no effect in their minds by going along with Law-keeping as being a requirement to gain or keep the gift of eternal life.

    Put simply, they were being tricked into believing another gospel outside of God's grace and Christ's finished work on the cross.

    However, it looks to me as if you are convinced that salvation can be lost, so I'll step back out of this.
    I've dealt with far too many people over the years who were absolutely convinced of it, and stayed that way, despite all the Scripture I could show them to the contrary.


    May God bless you.:)
     
    #9 Dave Gilbert, Jul 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  10. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Haven't they fallen from God's grace
    ... as far as He is concerned?

    Haven't they just added some Jewish laws
    to Christ's finished work on the cross?

    There are 2 sets of NT verses:
    -- the so-called OSAS/eternal security verses
    -- the verses opposed to OSAS/eternal security

    Perhaps, it is obvious that these 2 sets of verses
    need to be RECONCILED so they all make sense!
    Your solution to this problem will be appreciated.

    In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe”
    is a present tense imperative verb!
    So, a continuing belief-faith is necessary
    for continuing salvation-eternal life!

    “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved
    the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe]
    in Him should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.”

    Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as opposite sides of the same coin. Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief, whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ. Thus, when one is mentioned
    the other is implied … John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved. Instead, he used believe
    since this term included all of these ideas.
    (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    IMO, one should see in the whole NT that
    the NT meaning of "believe" must include:
    enduring belief, faith, trust
    enduring love for God
    enduring obedience
    enduring practicing righteousness
    enduring repentance of sin
    etc.
     
    #10 Samuels, Jul 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    No.
    " Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." ( Hebrews 13:5 )
    Yes, but they were not teaching it...they were only going along with it for a time.
    The teachers of false doctrine are the ones that God holds responsible and pronounces them accursed ( Galatians 1:6-10 ), not His children that may be carried away with every wind of doctrine ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).
    I think it best that you arrive at a solution for them yourself.
    To me, that's the best way.
    I encourage you to keep reading...it's the one thing that we as believers can do, that has its own built-in set of rewards.

    "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. "
    ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 )

    I agree.

    Everything the believer is characterized by, in the long run, is in those statements.
    But those that teach that there's no room for stumbling or growth that may take years, is not understanding that fruit takes time to grow, nor are they understanding the love that God has for His children.

    For example, the Corinthians were a mess, outwardly...but they grew up, spiritually.
     
  12. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Sorry, I haven't seen that in Galatians 5.

    I have arrived at a solution for reconciling
    all of them.
    I am challenging you to do the same.
    Or, perhaps you think its not important?
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    It's not in Galatians 5...it's in Galatians 1:6-10 and Galatians 3:1-14, Galatians 4:12-31.
    It all builds up to what he said in Galatians 5:4.
    Respectfully,
    I've already arrived at an understanding of the entire letter.
    I don't reconcile the differing "bits" ( verses ) with each other, I read it like a book or newspaper.
    I'm afraid I don't know where you're going...
    As stated above, I've already arrived at a solution....study it over and over, and it will all come together.
    it took a fair bit of time, but the Lord rewarded me for my studies.:)
    Every word of God is important ( Matthew 4:4 ), but trying to understand the pieces and reconcile them to each other, only goes part of the way.
    Unless you've arrived at the point that it begins to flows like a newspaper article, then it will always be a succession of pieces that need reconciling.
    I remember about 10-15 years ago when I had that same difficulty.

    God's remedy?
    Study ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).


    Again, May God bless you.:)
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  14. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Respectfully,
    I was talking about reconciling all of the NT verses
    to do with OSAS vs. non-OSAS.

    I have done it, and I challenge you to do this also.
    Or, perhaps you don't think this is
    a worthwhile endeavor?
     
  15. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your encouragement.
    As I've stated above, and I will clarify further, the Lord has already done it for me.:)
     
  16. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    If He has really done it for you,
    then you won't mind sharing it
    with your brothers and sisters.

    We are all waiting with great anticipation!
    C'mon, please don't be shy.
    It doesn't become you.
     
  17. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I do share it with my brothers and sisters.:)
    All the time.

    I've told you all you need to know...the same thing He tells us to do.
    Study ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
    Desire the sincere milk of the word, that we may grow thereby ( 1 Peter 2:2 ).

    I've given you the Scriptures that tell us how to understand His words.
    That's all that I have had for over 41 years.

    That's all there is to it, and it's working for me.
    I'm not any more special than anyone else who is saved.:Notworthy
    Please don't mock...it doesn't become a child of God.:Frown
     
    #17 Dave Gilbert, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Dave... I really liked the cart before the horse... Nice visual... I heard what you said and believed what you said... Our Salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of All Mighty God and as much as you want to believe it Samuels, we don't earn our Salvation by what we do, Jesus Christ did what it was IMPOSSIBLE for us, to do... With the scenario, you gave us Hell will be full and Heaven will be empty!... Brother Glen:eek:

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
     
    #18 tyndale1946, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
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  19. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Was Jesus a chid of God?
    He mocked those who needed mocking.

    You still haven't asked what my reconciliation is?
    (It's only one short sentence.)

    Oh, I forgot, you're not interested ...
    because you already know everything.
    Yes, that's it.
     
  20. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    No, He isn't a child of God in the adopted sense.
    He IS God, and He IS my Lord and Master.
    He mocked the Pharisees, who were sitting in Moses seat ( Matthew 23:2 ), and were fully responsible, under the covenant of Law, to act as the pastors of the people of Israel and to deliver the word of God to them.
    In other words, He mocked them from God's standpoint, and was angry with them because He, their God, was standing right in front of them.
    We as believers are never to do this...

    We are to take these to heart::

    Romans 12:14.
    Romans 12:17-21
    Colossians 3:1-11.
    1 Thessalonians 5:15
    2 Thessalonians 3:6-12
    1 Timothy 6:11
    2 Timothy 2:22-26
    Titus 3:1-2
     
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