1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Mark 14:12-16. Nisan 14.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Oct 18, 2023.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mark 14:12-16, ". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. . . ."

    Mark 14:17, ". . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . . ." Nisan 15.
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From: Mark 14:1 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

    Mark 14:1

    After two days was [the feast of] the passover

    That is, two days after Christ had delivered the foregoing discourse concerning the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, was the feast of the passover; which was kept in commemoration of God's passing over the houses of the Israelites, when he destroyed the firstborn of Egypt, and made way for the deliverance of the children of Israel from thence: and which was kept by eating the passover lamb; and which, properly speaking, is the feast of the passover:

    and of unleavened bread;

    which was the same feast with the other, called so from the unleavened bread which was then eaten; though with this difference, the passover lamb was only eaten on the first night, but unleavened bread was eaten for seven days together. The Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions render it, "the passover of unleavened bread", leaving out the copulative "and".

    First of all, there may be quite a confusion over this passage, in Mark 14:12, saying, "the first day of unleavened bread".

    While the official "Days of Unleavened Bread", begin on the Annual High Sabbath Day*, Nison 15, on Thursday, in the year A.D. 31 (where I am with the death of Jesus), this passage here talking about what it calls the "first day of unleavened bread", is referring to the first day which begins the season of unleavened bread, as the start of the unleavened bread festival.

    That 'first day" is the same day as the Day of Preparation ** and the Passover Day, Wednesday, Nison 14, as we see from Gill above saying "the feast of the Passover and unleavened bread", are that first day of the season or festival of the Passover and unleavened bread and the same as the Day of Preparation**, before the Annual High Day Sabbath*

    ( with the OFFICIAL DAY of Unleavened Bread being the next day, Thursday, Nison 15, the day of the Annual High Day Sabbath*, although Mark 14:12 calls the day before, Wednesday, Nison 14 "the first day of unleavened bread", as above.

    Again, that 'first day" of the unleavened day festival and 'season', is the same day as the Day of Preparation ** and the Passover Day, Wednesday, Nison 14.

    And that follows through that Day of Preparation ** and "the preparation day before the Sabbath*", (with that 'Sabbath' meaning the Annual High Day Sabbath*, Nison 15), would be 'first day" of the unleavened day festival and 'season' and is the same day as the Day of Preparation** and the Passover Day, Wednesday, Nison 14.)

    That places this passage "Mark 14:12; ". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover", to be at the beginning of Wednesday, Nison 14 (our Tuesday afternoon, after 6:00 pm.)

    * John 19:31; identifies the Sabbath the day after the Day of Preparation**, or "the preparation, Wednesday, Nison 14, by saying, "for that Sabbath was a high day"; "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    ** "All four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42). Mark, Luke, and John all state that the following day was the Sabbath. John’s account uses this wording: “It was the day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14).


    They then were killing and roasting the Passover lamb later Wednesday, Nison 14;

    " and they made ready the passover;"

    "they bought a lamb; they had it killed in the temple, according to rule; and they brought it to the house, where they were to sup, and got it roasted; and provided unleavened bread, and wine, and bitter herbs, and every thing that was proper for the feast; (See Gill on Matthew 26:19).

    And then, I am going to have to make Mark 14:16, be in the evening, also, of Wednesday, Nison 14.

    "Since Passover is on the 14th of Abib/Nisan (also the day of preparation before the Annual High Day Sabbath, on Thursday, Nison 15) the day of the week changes from year to year. That means the preparation day changes from year to year and is not necessarily on Friday as is the weekly preparation day. In fact, Nisan 14 was a Wednesday in a.d. 31. Any simple Hebrew calendar program or book will demonstrate this fact. On average, Passover will only fall on Friday three out of 19 years. The other 16 years it will be some other day, yet it is still called a preparation day because the next day is a high day, or annual Sabbath day.

    "In a.d. 31, the year of Christ’s death, Passover fell on a Wednesday. That means He ate the Passover supper at the beginning of the 14th of Abib, or just after sunset on what today’s Roman calendar calls Tuesday.

    "Next, Christ and His remaining 11 disciples (Judas had departed) went to the garden of Gethsemane.

    "During the night Jesus was arrested and tried.

    "Then at midday Wednesday, He was crucified.

    "He died that afternoon (Luke 23:44).

    "His body was claimed for burial by Joseph of Arimathaea at the end of the preparation day (Wednesday, Nison 14, the same as the "first day of unleavened bread" season or festival in Mark 14:12, when they killed and ate the passover at the Lord's Supper) and before the (Official) first day of Unleavened Bread began (Nison 15).


    A very clear understanding of several of the salient points regarding the details around the year Jesus was born, based on several things including the taxing of Joseph and Mary, and the dates and days of the week of Jesus' birth, and death, to His resurrection, should be able to be seen at:
    | Philadelphia Church of God.
     
    #2 Alan Gross, Oct 18, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2023
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Alan Gross, while I believe you mean well, you have your information wrong on a number of points.
    The high Passover Sabbath is the 7th day Sabbath during the week of the feast, the 15th to the 21st. The other two high days the 15th and 21st are nowhere in the word of God called a sabbath. And besides this, in 31 A.D. the 15th fell on a Tuesday.

    The 7 days of unleavened bread are the 14th to the 20th per Exodus 12:18. And so it's feast, the 15th to the 21st, only has 6 of the 7 days per Deuteronomy 16:8.
     
    #3 37818, Oct 18, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2023
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you can get the correct interpretation of John 19:31, where it says,
    you might be able to get why that Sabbath falls on the same day as the Saturday, 7th day Sabbath during some years and why it takes place on other days of the week, during some other years.

    Not just "an interpretation", or "any interpretation", or "the 'interpretation' that matches with my set in concrete assumptions", but the correct interpretation is what you need, here: https://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Basics.FAQ/ID/169/Is-high-day-weekly-Sabbath.htm

    Reference verses: Bible Verses about Feast of Unleavened Bread

    See Matthew 26:17; "Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?"

    & Exodus 12:5; "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. "12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night,"


    14And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD
    throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. 15Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 16And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. 17And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. 18In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread,"
     
    #4 Alan Gross, Oct 19, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2023
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the KJV the words "day" and "feast of" are added by the translators in Matthew 26:17. Not in the Greek text.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's because they knew to clarify that the feast that is also referred to using the words unleavened bread began on the preparation day a day before the High Day Sabbath on Nison 15, which is called, "the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them," Exodus 12:16a.

    Exodus 12:14b, 15a; " ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. 15Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread..."

    12:6b; "the fourteenth day of the same month..."

    11d -12a, 14a; "it is the LORD'S passover. "12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night,"

    14And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD..."
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was wondering how on earth you moved the Sabbath around each year to be on a Saturday. You just skipped what the Bible says about Nison 15 being the ANNUAL Sabbath, "that Sabbath was a high day", which can't and doesn't always fall on Saturday, anymore than our July the 4th, or December the 25th aways fall on the same day of the week. They just can't and don't.

    Of course, there is a seventh day Sabbath on each Saturday in every week, but Nison 15 is an Annual Sabbath, a Holy convocation unto the Lord, and whatever day of the week it falls, THAT is the Sabbath from which we calculate knowing that the Lord was crucified on the day before it.

    We can't just say that the Saturday Sabbath during the entire 15th to the 21st is the only Sabbath during that period, from which to go back one day in order to claim Jesus was crucified on a Friday, just because we assume that we just have to have Friday set in concrete, for the day we are determined to say Jesus died.

    The 15th and 21st are Sabbaths, too, Holy convocations unto the Lord.

    That Saturday Sabbath was not a High Day Annual Sabbath, as per John 19:31.

    Nison 15 was the High Day Annual Sabbath that John 19:31 tells us to look for and what day did it fall on in A.D. 31, according to the Jewish calendar? Thursday.

    Otherwise, by trying to force the weekly Saturday Sabbath into being the High Day John 19:31 is talking about, we are going to have to also say that Saturday is on Nison 15 every year, and we'd be making a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

    Nison 15 can't and doesn't always fall on a Saturday. It can and does some years, but not in every year. In A.D. 31, I see it fell on a Thursday, from the Jewish calendar.

    That is what makes the day before that Nison 15 Annual High Day Sabbath, on Thursday, the day of the week when Jesus was crucified to be Wednesday, the day of preparation.

    Leviticus 23:7
    "On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it." An Annual Sabbath.

    Numbers 29:12
    "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work, and you shall keep a feast to the LORD seven days." An Annual Sabbath.

    Exodus 12:16; "And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them," Both Holy convocations are Annual Sabbaths.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The 14th is the Passover.

    The 15th is the first day of the feast of unleaved bread.

    The seven days of unleaved bread are the 14th through the 20th per Exodus 12:18. There are only 7 days not 8.

    The feast is 7 days the 15th through the 21st, and only has 6 of the 7 days of unleaved bread per Exodus 12:18 and Deuteronomy 16:8.

    And these two references are them.

    Translators do not agree on Matthew 26:17 and there parallel passages!
     
    #9 37818, Oct 20, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2023
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If the 14th is Wednesday it's evening is Tuesday. Wednesday evening would be the 15th.

    Jewish dates begin the evening the English day name the day before.

    Sunday Monday Tuesday etc are midnight to midnight.
    Jewish dates are evening to evening.
     
    #10 37818, Oct 20, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2023
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 19:31, calls an high day "the Sabbath day";
    "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

    "The Gospel of John says of the day beginning following Christ's death, "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31–42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies."

    From: High Sabbaths.
     
    #11 Alan Gross, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From THE CRUCIFIXION WAS NOT ON FRIDAY! - Part II
    By Herman L. Hoeh

    "Here is a chart verified by works on the "Jewish calendar" — actually God's sacred calendar — absolutely correct according to the computation preserved since the days of Moses;

    Dates Passover

    A.D. 29 Saturday, April 16

    A.D. 30 Wednesday, April 5

    A.D. 31 Wednesday, April 25

    A.D. 32 Monday, April 14

    A.D. 33 Friday, April 3

    "To place the Passover on a Friday in A.D. 30 is to violate one of the rules of the fixed calendar — that no common year of the sacred calendar may have 356 days. Common years of 12 months may be only 353, 354 or 355 days long, a fact you can verify in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

    "Theologians place the Passover of A.D. 30 on Friday, April 7, 356 days after the Passover of A.D. 29. Count it for yourself! This date is two days late. The Passover in A.D. 30 was only 354 days after that of A.D. 29.

    "The 14th of the month Nisan could have occurred on Wednesday in A.D. 30, as well as in A.D. 31. Thus, if you want to believe that the crucifixion was in A.D. 30 — which it was not — you would still have to admit that Friday could not be the day of the crucifixion!

    "For the year A.D. 31 a few references, unacquainted with the rules of the Hebrew calendar, mistakenly give the Passover, Nisan 14, as Monday, March 26. But this is one month too early. The year A.D. 30-31 was intercalary — that is, it had 13 months — thus placing the Passover 30 days later in A.D. 31, and on a Wednesday."

    THE CRUCIFIXION WAS NOT ON FRIDAY! - Part I

    THE CRUCIFIXION WAS NOT ON FRIDAY! - Part II

    By Herman L. Hoeh
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From: Exodus 12 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

    "Verse 18. In the first month,.... As it was now ordered to be reckoned, the month Abib or Nisan:

    "the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread; that is, at the evening following, the fourteenth of Nisan, and which was the beginning of the fifteenth day, the Jews beginning their day from the evening: hence the Targum of Jonathan is, "on the fourteenth of Nisan ye shall slay the passover, in the evening of the fifteenth ye shall eat unleavened bread:"

    "unto the twentieth day of the month at even; which would make just seven days; the above Targum adds, "on the evening of the twenty second ye shall eat leavened bread," which was the evening following the twenty first day. This long abstinence from leaven denotes, that the whole lives of those who are Israelites indeed should be without guile, hypocrisy, and malice, and should be spent in sincerity and truth."


    From: Deuteronomy 16 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

    "Verse 3. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it,.... With the passover, as the Targum of Jonathan expresses it; that is, with the passover lamb, nor indeed with any of the passover, or peace offerings, as follows; see Exodus 12:8

    seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread therewith
    ; with the passover; this plainly shows, that by the passover in the preceding verse is not meant strictly the passover lamb, for that was eaten at once on the night of the fourteenth of the month, and not seven days running, and therefore must be put for the whole solemnity of the feast, and all the sacrifices of it, both the lamb of the fourteenth, and the Chagigah of the fifteenth, and every of the peace offerings of the rest of the days were to be eaten with unleavened bread:"

    "Verse 8. Six days shalt thou eat unleavened bread,.... In other places it is ordered to be eaten seven days, Exodus 12:15 and here it is not said six only; it was to be eaten on the seventh as on the other, though that is here distinguished from the six, because of special and peculiar service assigned to it, but not because of an exemption from eating unleavened bread on it. The Jews seem to understand this of different corn of which the bread was made, and not of different sort of bread; the Targum of Jonathan is, on the first day ye shall offer the sheaf (the firstfruits of the barley harvest), and on the six days which remain ye shall begin to eat the unleavened bread of the new fruits, and so Jarchi:

    "and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord thy God; a holy convocation, devoted to religious exercises, and the people were restrained, according to the sense of the word, from all servile work, as follows..."
     
    #13 Alan Gross, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The evening of Wednesday, Nison 14, would be our Tuesday evening, correct.

    The evening of our Wednesday and the evening of their day on Wednesday, Nison 14 after 6:00 pm, would still be our Wednesday evening, but would be the beginning of their Thursday, Nison 15, correct.

    I'm calling "in the evening", there in Mark 14:17, to still be our Tuesday Night, which is still the beginning of their Wednesday, Nison 14.

    I'm saying that this was just after 6:00 pm of our Tuesday, the the start of their Wednesday, Nison 14, prior to the "evening", as seen above.

     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The day after Christ's death was the day before the Sabbath per John 19:31 with Mark 15:42.
    " . . . The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, . . ."
    ". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, . . ."
    The Jewish Preparation Day begins our Thursday evening.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    His A.D. 31 date is not correct.
    https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Re: Mark 14:12-16.
    Your impossing an unstated evening. The day of the week would depend on the actual year. And a "their" Wednesday is ludicrous.

    The next verse Mark 14:17 says it was the evening following, that Passover day in the text.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    1,255
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exodus 12:18 is the explicit verse identifing the 7 days of unleavened bread.
    "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even."
    8 days are listed. The 14th through 21st. The 21st is not a day of unleaved bread. The 21st is the 7th day of the feast of unleaved bread. So Deuteronomy 16:8 says, "Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: . . ."
     
    #19 37818, Oct 22, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2023
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If we ignore the Sabbath in John 19:31, as being what is says, a high day.

    The weekly Sabbath is never called a 'high day's.

    This .PDF article lists 12 other Bible passages and 9 other sources showing that the 'high day', in John 19:31, is an Annual Sabbath.

    "High Day Sabbaths" - By John Lemley - British Israel Church Of God https://www.british-israel.ca/Lemley Articles.pdf

    You meant to say, "The day of Christ' death..."
     
    #20 Alan Gross, Oct 22, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2023
Loading...