Mark:

[AVL1984]

Texas, I will address your continued implications that I've said something I haven't in a minute. But, first, let me point out again that you are twisting and turning in the wind. You've still not pointed out where I have said anything that you've stated I've said...or where I've even implied it. I think you'd better watch the twisting of people's words, writer or not. It might just get you into a heap of trouble you don't want.

I'll be posting a response soon.

 

[TexasSky]

Larry,

If you can post these words: Third, I am not rebuking Graham (and never brougth up Falwell in this thread). I am speaking to the fact that Graham has been disobedient and has probably compromised the gospel....

and NOT see that you are being unChristian in your attacks on Billy Graham, it will not do any good to continue talking to you about this.

The fact is, Graham has NOT been disobedient to God. For the majority of his life, even when he was dieing, the man did his best to win souls to Christ. He has followed the great commission.

You bring up the people who "didn't attend church afterwards." How do you know they didn't? How do you know that their salvation wasn't real just because they didn't play by the "go to church every time the doors open" theory you listed?

If this is reason enough to condemn Graham, surely you yourself, and any other living Christian is condemend. I know I've taught where the seed has not taken root, just as I've taught where it has. At least I did what the commission said to do.

And if you're going to accuse him of "compromising the gospel," you best stand up and show WHERE he did, verse by verse. Because I truly question you and your intentions.

And where are your sermons and teachings that we may judge you as harshly as you have judged this great man of God?

How does making remarks like accusing him of compromising the gospel serve God? Does it give the message of Christ to anyone? That is change Graham in any way? Does it show love? Does it even correct what you think he was wrong about?

No - it JUST condemns.

And you don't have the right. You haven't earned the right because you CAN'T earn the right.

Remember where they said, "Lord, that man is casting out demons in your name, and he isn't one of us, make him stop," and Christ said, "Let him be!"

Well, LET GRAHAM BE.

More people heard the love of Christ because Graham preached it in football stadiums than ever heard it by coming to this board and reading that Pastor Larry thinks Graham compromised it.

 

[AVL1984]

Hmmmm, again, TexasSky overlooks the fact that the Apostles pointed out false doctrine and positions even amongst themselves. One sided doctrine doesn't make for the whole counsel of God, TS.

 

[TexasSky]

Av - Larry -

When was the last time on this board you said something encouraging to a fellow Christian?

When was the last time on this board you said something uplifting and supportive of a fellow Christian?

When was the last time on this board you used scripture to defend a statement you made, by actually posting it in context?

When was the last time you worried as much about preaching the word of Christ as you did about defending or condemning?

Av - generalizations? You've made numerous cracks and comments about me in this thread. Not a single one of them fitting of a scriptual method of correction if you truly thought I was wrong.

You've ignored the scriptures posted, going for personal attacks on me rather than address them.

And you expect me to take you seriously?

In my eyes, you've set yourself up above Christ, by setting yourself up as a judge of Christ's servants.

If the bible doesn't teach love and forgiveness, what did Christ die for?

If the bible doesn't teach love and forgiveness, why SHOULD we follow him?

 

[TexasSky]

Av,

And here we are again "one sided doctorine".

I have posted from Matthew, Mark and Luke showing the words of Christ himself, in chapter after chapter after chapter. I've posted from James, Romans, Hebrews and Galations.

I am accused of "one sided doctorine."

YOu have posted name calling insults, accusations of one-sidedness and not a single scripture.

Gee, I feel so .. convicted to follow your God of judgment and hate. (rolls my eyes)

Did you ever read Job?

Fascinating book.
Satan goes to God and says, "That person doesn't REALLY love you."
God says, "Sure they do."
Satan goes, "No, really, really they don't."
God says, "Yes, the do."
Satan says, "Well that is just cuz you're protecting him."
God says, "I'll remove my protections."
And Satan tries, oh how he tries, to make the man say that he doesn't love God, just so Satan can go back to God and say, "AHA! SEE!"

Well, Av, that's how you come across to me right now. Sitting there trying to convince me that God is NOT loving, God is NOT forgiving, God did NOT condemn legalism, God DID approve attacking fellow Christians, God DOESN'T want love taught.

Av - do you know who does NOT want love taught?

Satan doesn't.

Teaching love scares Satan.

Teaching legalism is fine with Satan.
Teaching judgment is fine with Satan.

Those things turn people from God.
The Pharisees and Saducees LOVED to preach those things.

Satan taught Adam and Eve, "Go ahead! Eat it! You'll be like God! You'll know right from wrong!"

And Adam and Eve fell for it.

Don't fall for it Av.
DON'T fall for the same tempation Adam and Eve fell for.

 

[AVL1984]

Name calling insults? Where? Posting scripture proves nothing, especially the way you post it and twist it to fit your means. You post only one side of the truth, and not the other. Again...I'm replying, but am doing several things at once. Believe me, I won't leave you hanging. I think you're doing a pretty good job of doing that yourself. I have nowhere implied that God is not loving...so, you are just flat out lying. Again, you've been warned about this, and I will bring it to an administrators attention if you continue to make such false accusations. Capish?!

 

[TexasSky]

In the time I've been posting this thread, I just re-read, literally, Matthew to Revelation. I found a few places in the new testament where Paul says that if you've got a brother sinning, and you go to him, and in Christian love, talk to him about it, and then bring him to others in the church and try to talk to him about it, and he ignores you, to expel him from the fellowship.

That's the closest thing I find to this so called "god given authority" to judge and play God.

It doesn't quite hold up the way you present it, against, "Thou shalt not judge," and "do not judge." But hey, what did Christ know? He was just the Christ.

 

[TexasSky]

Av -

I posted scriptures in context throughout the whole word of God. You accuse me of twisting, I posted them as they are written, in context.

You've posted NOTHING.

Name calling? You just accused me of twisting scripture.

You say one side? Frankly, I just don't SEE two sides to an arguement that says man has the right to judge when the bible says, "Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord."

And when it flat out says, "You don't have the right to judge the Master's servants," I REALLY think its a one-sided arguement.

But you go ahead, and post the scriptures that say you have the authority to judge in God's place. I'm listening.

 

[TexasSky]

The bottom line, is you WANT to judge other people. You WANT to look down on them.

You seem to delight in feeling you have the authority to.

The attitude is proof that it isn't of Christ.

Ever seen a Christian who was close to God have to correct a brother or sister in Christ? It breaks their heart! They usually weep when they find out about the sin! They pray! They ask God to give the words! They ask God to help the brother or sister.

They go in love and say, "How can I help you through this?"

If there is no love in the rebuke, it isn't from God.

 

[AVL1984]

You keep bringing the statement of right to judge up, and I've never mentioned that. I think you need to learn how to deal with people, friend. I did say that we should point out doctrinal error. I wish you'd quit twisting my words....again! The Bible does tell us that by their fruit you will know them, and even a child is known by his doings. Well, you are well known by the moderators and administrators alike for twisting scripture and doctrine and people's words. You point out one side and leave the other undone....hmmm...I think Jesus said something about that to the scribes and pharisees does he not????

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
The bottom line, is you WANT to judge other people. You WANT to look down on them.

You seem to delight in feeling you have the authority to.

The attitude is proof that it isn't of Christ.

Ever seen a Christian who was close to God have to correct a brother or sister in Christ? It breaks their heart! They usually weep when they find out about the sin! They pray! They ask God to give the words! They ask God to help the brother or sister.

They go in love and say, "How can I help you through this?"

If there is no love in the rebuke, it isn't from God.

Again, post proof of your false accusations or retract your statement. I'm flat out pointing out that you're lying now, because I have nowhere made that statement. Grow up!

 

[TexasSky]

A challenge to anyone who thinks I am taking them out of context. Go in and read the entire book of the gospel that contains the scripture I referenced.

If I can read Matthew to Revelation in a few hours, you can read just one book in a few hours.

If you think I'm twisting them - read them Chapter 1 verse 1 to the end of the book.

Forget your commentaries and your devotionals that pull them out and organize them for you.

Read God's word the way it was written.

 

[TexasSky]

Av,

This thread is proof of my accusations. You say much more with actions than you ever do with statements.

You've asked me for proof. I offer your eagerness to hope in and accuse me of twisting scripture.

Now, I ask you. Where is YOUR proof? Where are the scriptures? Where is God's word?

If I twisted scripture when I posted the words of James, show me what James "really" said and what he "really meant."

Stop calling me names and use God's word to stand up to the line of accountability.

Read God's word, Av.

In context.
The whole book you question.

I BEG you to do that.

I absolutely BEG you to. If you want to ready Romans, read ALL of Romans. If you want to read Hebrews, read ALL of Hebrews.

Just ask God to show you the truth of His word and READ. He promised that if you hunger and thirst after righteousness you will be filled.

So ask him for it and read it.

 

[AVL1984]

Deflecting isn't going to work here, TS. I have called you no names. I have pointed out that you lie and twist. You have yet to post one iota of proof against me or Larry or anyone else. Again, the burden of such proof is on you, friend. You're constant implication that I don't understand scripture is laughable at best and demeaning as well. I read God's Word daily and study it for many hours weekly. But, then, I'm not accountable to you for what I do or do not do in my devotional or study time, now am I? Talk about "judging". I think you'd better look in the mirror, sister! I think you'll find you're more guilty of what you're accusing others of than they are!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
If you can post these words: Third, I am not rebuking Graham (and never brougth up Falwell in this thread). I am speaking to the fact that Graham has been disobedient and has probably compromised the gospel....

and NOT see that you are being unChristian in your attacks on Billy Graham, it will not do any good to continue talking to you about this.

Demonstrate what is unChristian? I poitned out the facts, and I documented them. They have been documented for more than 50 years.

The fact is, Graham has NOT been disobedient to God.[/qutoe]He was, and is. He joined hands with apostates from whom he was commanded to separate by God. He has said that people might get to heaven without faith in Christ. He has said taht baby baptism does something spiritually regenerative for babies. Those are all clear examples of disobedience and compromise on teh part of Graham.

You bring up the people who "didn't attend church afterwards." How do you know they didn't?

Because they said so. Extensive research was done on the subject.

How do you know that their salvation wasn't real just because they didn't play by the "go to church every time the doors open" theory you listed?

I don't know that I said that their salvation wasn't real. But true salvation results in continuation.

If this is reason enough to condemn Graham, surely you yourself, and any other living Christian is condemend.

I didn't condemn Graham for the lack of their conversion. I said that many in my own ministry are the same way. It was a comment about the supposed glowing results. I already said that, so I don't know why you are asking again.

And if you're going to accuse him of "compromising the gospel," you best stand up and show WHERE he did, verse by verse. Because I truly question you and your intentions. [/qutoe]I did. He has said to McCall's Magazine in 1972, to Robert Schuller more recently, and in other interviews that Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and other may go to heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. As I have said, this has been documented for many years.

And where are your sermons and teachings that we may judge you as harshly as you have judged this great man of God?

I haven't judge a great man of God harshly. I have followed the biblical command to be discerning, to mark and warn about those who teach contrary to the doctrine of Scripture, and to separate from those who are disobedient. If you want to judge my preaching, I preach or teach every Sunday (3 times at present, and usually on Wednesday). You are more than welcome to come and listen, and we will sit down and talk about any questions you may have.

How does making remarks like accusing him of compromising the gospel serve God?

It honors the truth that he has revealed by pointing out where teachers contradict it. We always serve truth by pointing out errors.

Does it give the message of Christ to anyone?

Yes, to those who are listening, it shows the true message of Christ, not completely, but that is not the intent of it.

That is change Graham in any way?

Unfortunately, it doesn't. Graham's mentors and friends talked to him for many years and pleaded with him not to be disobedient, but Graham refused. I hope that in these sunset days of his life, he will see the damage that he did to the gospel by joining up with those who don't believe it.

Does it show love?[/qutoe]Yes, love for God by defending his truth and urging obedience, and love for others by warning them about the dangers of disobedience.

Does it even correct what you think he was wrong about?

The Bible corrects what he was wrong about. I haven't done that in detail here. I think it is pretty plain however.

And you don't have the right. You haven't earned the right because you CAN'T earn the right.

Not sure what this means. I am a pastor and a believer (they are not always the same). I have a responsibility before God to be obedient to him, even when it puts me on the socially wrong side of a situation such as this one has.

Remember where they said, "Lord, that man is casting out demons in your name, and he isn't one of us, make him stop," and Christ said, "Let him be!"

Well, LET GRAHAM BE.

The Christ you quote said to mark false teacher and disobedient brothers and separate from them. Would you really ask me to disobey Christ in order to please you?

More people heard the love of Christ because Graham preached it in football stadiums than ever heard it by coming to this board and reading that Pastor Larry thinks Graham compromised it.

So ... This is totally irrelevant. It is the very idea I was addressing above about the numbers issue. Numbers aren't the issue.

 

[Pastor Larry]

TS, You need to retract your accusations of me. You have misused SCripture to suggest that love precludes obedience in the areas of pointing out false doctrine and disobediencd. You accused me of saying something I didn't say. It doesn't bother me personally, because I know it is wrong, and others who read here know what you said about me was wrong. But as a matter of principle, in civil conversation, you cannot carry it on in the manner in which you have. You have been very accusatory; you have put words in people's mouths that they did not say. That is not acceptable.

 

[TexasSky]

Pastor Larry,

I will retract that you said Graham was lost, since it seems that this was a remark made by someone else. I truly believed it came from you.

I do not, though, retract the statements regarding what you DID say about Graham.

That said you did NOT present "false doctorine" you accused someone of presenting false doctorine without showing anything to support your claim. I hold to my stance that this is unChristian and unacceptable in the eyes of God.

Love DOES stand above correction. I didn't say that, CHRIST did.

 

[TexasSky]

AV, I'm not deflecting.

You did indeed "call names" when you made accusations of twisting scripture that you cannot back up.

I stand by my word.

 

[TexasSky]

You said: He has said that people might get to heaven without faith in Christ. He has said taht baby baptism does something spiritually regenerative for babies. Those are all clear examples of disobedience and compromise on teh part of Graham.

I don't believe that.
I've listened to Dr. Graham for years. I've studied his books for years. I have NEVER once heard him make the statements attributed to him, and I don't believe for a minute he did say them.

 

[Servent]

TS, you talk alot about Love and forgiveness, but you sure dont so much of it, what happen to forgiving your brother 70x7, and all that, you should be lifting these brothers up not trying to tear them down know matter what was said about someone else, if there wrong God will set that right when it's time.

Servant