posted June 20, 2005 02:03 PMJune 20, 2005 02:03 PM
TexasSky states: Av: You can take umbriage if you want, but when you sit back and try to condemn me for "having tunnel vision about the love of Christ," and tell me, in the next post that your right to judge comes from Paul preaching Christ's judgment, I rest my case. CHRIST's judgement is NOT yours.
AVL1984 Responds: TS, Nowhere did I condemn you. I stated a fact, that fact being your tunnel vision on the subject of Christ’s love. I nowhere have stated that Christ is not love, nor will I ever. But you seem to have the mind to negate the Holiness of God in favor of the love, thereby doing away with His holiness and the judgment that will come to those who do not know him. Hell is real.
TexasSky posts these verses: Romans 12:9 "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, clint to what is good. (EMPHASIZED BY TS)Be devoted to one another in brother love. Honor one another above yourselves. (END EMPHASIS) Never be lackign in zeal, but keep your spiritual ferver, serveing the lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another.(EMPHASIZED BY TS) Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. (End Emphasis) Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, (Emphasized by TS)live at peace with everyone. (End Emphasis) Do not take revenge my friends, (Emphasized by TS) but leave room for God's wrath for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. (End Emphasis)On the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this you will heep burning coals on his head. (Emphasized by TS)Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good. (End Emphasis)
Romans 13:8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, expect the continuing debt to love one another for who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, and (Emphasized by TS)whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Terefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (End Emphasis)
AVL1984 Responds: TS, nobody is disputing the validity of these Scriptures, and I pretty much can say that you’ve not got an iota of proof that anyone has.
The twisting is in the selectiveness of what you chose to highlight, with the presupposition that other Christians don’t agree with this and that you’re more righteous than they are. Yet, I find that you are judging here, are you not? Yes…you are. Well??? Pointing out doctrinal error and improper exegesis of the passages isn’t judging. It is correcting. Quit trying to play the part of the martyr, because you’re not. I would like to point out the end of Romans 13:8 “Love is the fulfillment of the law.” Indeed it is. That would bring us to the question of what love is….Is it just sitting on our haunches and letting someone get by with doctrinal error or the twisting of scripture? No, it is not. That would be error on our parts, and we are told to prove all things and to hold fast to that which is good. Love isn’t just sitting idly by while someone continues to lead someone down the wrong path with their opinion of what the Bible says.
It seems to me in the verses below that there IS INDEED a degree of judging involved to determine what/whom needs to be rebuked, reproved, etc…..
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2Ti 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
In order to reprove or rebuke, one must indeed make a judgment call by inspection of not only the persons involved, but the circumstances. To think anything else is ludicrous and poor exegesis of scripture. Though I have not said anything about judging in previous posts, you seem to continuously imply that I and others have, yet you neglect to open your eyes to your own JUDGMENT of us. Something isn’t quite right about that….I wonder what!
TS POSTS: Want to discuss judgement of Christians?
Lets see what Paul really said shall we?
Romans 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgment on disputable matters."
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables, (Emphasis by TS)the man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does. FOR GOD HAS ACCEPTED HIM, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVANT?" To his own Master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (End Emphasis)
OPPS. Looks like Paul might not agree that you have the right to dispense God's judgment.
AVL1984 Responds: Again, nobody is in disagreement with this verse. But, the verse is talking of food and convictions on the same. Still I didn’t bring up judgment, and you did and incorrectly interpreted this verse, again, in a desperate attempt to prove a point that is moot!
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Hmmmm…proving all things involves judgment of the proof….Well, I’ll be! Now let’s look at another….
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Again…the above talks of knowing them by their fruits….Hmmmm….that involves a degree of judgment….Again….Though I didn’t bring up the subject of judgment, YOU DID, and this is for YOUR BENEFIT, TS!
TS POSTS: Want more from Paul on the topic?
Look at Romans 14: 19 "Let us make every effort ot do what leads to peace (Emphasized by TS)and to mutual edification . " (End Emphasis)
AVL1984 Responds to this lax interpretation of this scripture by TS: mutual edification doesn’t mean overlooking the error you are spreading. Neither does it mean overlooking your false accusations and character assassination of others such as Brother Larry.
TS POSTS: Romans 14:7 "Accept one another then, jsut as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God."
AVL1984 Responds: Accepting one another doesn’t mean that we have to idly sit by while scripture is incorrectly interpreted. I can accept you and point out your error at the same time.
TS POSTS: 1 Corinithians 3:3 "You are still wordly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you,are you not wordly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
AVL1984 Responds: I don’t quite gather the significance of this verse, unless you are implying that I am saying “I am of Paul”, which again would be you twisting my words and implying I’ve said something I haven’t. But, I’m finding this common for you.
TS POSTS:
How does Paul say we need to handle a Christian who sinned? 2 Corinithians 1:5 "If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent. Not to put it too severly. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for hi. Now instead you ought to forgive and comfort him, that he is not overwhelmed by excessive sorry. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.
AVL1984 Responds: This is an incorrect verse. Mind finding the correct one? But, even at that, the verse in context is talking of causing grief or an offense against someone else. Again, though, nobody is saying we shouldn’t treat others with love. You’ve interpreted it that way in your warped view of everyone else and your pious view of yourself.
TS POSTS: Oh, wait, what is this? Galations 6:1 "Brothers, if someone is caught in sin, you should (Emphasis by TS)restore him gently . (End Emphasis)
AVL1984 Responds: And again, nobody is disputing this. It doesn’t have any bearing on the subject at hand anyhow, but again is a poor attempt by you to try and make it seem as though ALL Christians don’t deal with others in love. This is a shame to you, not us. Poor exegesis of scripture is NEVER excusable.
TS POSTS: James 4:11 "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law you are not keeping it. There is only one lawgiver and judge, the one who is able to save and destroy, But you, who are you to judge your neighbor?
Let me repeat that. From God's word.
"There is only one lawgiver and judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you, who are you to judge your neighbor?"
AVL1984 Responds: Again, nobody is disputing these verses. Your reasoning is circular and garbled at best. YOU are the one who brought up the subject of judgment and implied everyone was doing so. Boy, again, I MUST point out that is exactly what you have been doing….Hmmmm…pretty strange, isn’t it?!
There are many different types of judging, TS, as you well know. Do you make any judgments throughout the day? Judgment can in many cases be just an opinion or decision. Hmmm…again…how you going to explain that one away?
TS POSTS: So, yes, AV, I do have tunnel vision. (Emphasis MINE)I do believe it is wrong to ignore scripture after scripture after scripture that tells me only God has the power to judge,
AVL Responds: Yet, you don’t have a hard time judging Pastor Larry or myself. Hmmmm….again…strange!
TS POST CONTINUED: that tells me NOT to judge, that tells me to forgive, that tells me to correct in love, that tells me to love, and say, "Well, God is a God of judgement so I can judge."
I can't judge people.
AVL Responds: You can’t? Hmmm…seems to me that you have all throughout this thread by lying and saying that others here have said that they can. Me for instance. I never stated such, yet you imputed it to me….Again, you’ve proven yourself to be a liar and a hypocrite.
TS POST CONTINUES: I can go to you and say, "This is what God says is a sin, and this is what God wants to do for you." But Judge you? No. I'm not God, you aren't God. And that is what I'm doing now. I'm telling, God said, it is a sin to judge others.
So I'm telling you people - if you are fooling yourself into thinking YOU have the power or right or authority to judge - you are WRONG.
AVL Responds: Hmmm…again..you’ve judged…you say we’re wrong…Judgment made… True or not, TS?
TS POSTS: You have the duty to lovingly show a brother what Christ says, but you do NOT have the authority to look down on them.
We aren't God.
We don't have the right to condemn God's chosen.
We have the duty to TEACH.
Teaching is NOT judging.
Teaching is NOT condemning.
AVL Responds: Teaching involves judgment of what is correct or incorrect. Again, you’ve not really got much of a grasp on the English language, do you?
Teaching indeed CAN be judging, and it well can be condemning.
TS POSTS: We are commanded to love.
If we don't love - even the sinner, especially the sinner - we're violating the laws of God.
AVL Responds: Who has said otherwise? Not I, yet you have imputed those statements and actions to me and others here.
TS POSTS: Argue all you want.
Call me a heretic all you want.
AVL Responds: Who here has called you a heretic. Aren’t you being a bit melodramatic and just flat out lying here?
TS POSTS: I have God's word to back me up.
AVL Responds: As long as it is only a few verses or sections of verses that can be easily twisted to fit your warped views of theology.
TS POSTS: STOP hurting yourselves.
The message, "I have the right to judge," is the same kind of message Satan gave in the garden of Eden. It is trying to imply man has the authority of God.
AVL Responds: …puzzled and wondering how in the world TS got this crock of bull: Mind proving this statement, TS? I don’t see that in the garden of Eden unless you twist it out of context.
TS POSTS: Man is NOT God. (COMMENT BY AVL: Who says that he is? Who has even implied this?)
Man will NEVER be God. (Well, DUH…I think that’s pretty obvious)
Judgment IS GOD'S. (Again, who is disputing this?)
TS POSTS:Teach in love.
Or don't teach.
Correct in love.
Or don't correct.
AVL responds: I might emphasis the fact that you might want to practice what you preach before you preach it. It would definitely make you more credible.
TS POSTS: Don't assume you're better than anyone else in the world. You're just one more sinner who God forgave.
AVL Responds: And I have never stated otherwise, nor has anyone else.
