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Mark:

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Originally posted by TexasSky:
Yes, AV, I do correct, Granny.

And as to what I posted and highlighted, I posted it in text, and highlighted the parts that I think you like to skip over on a daily basis.

As to the repeated, "Dr. Bob reprimanded her," I know of only ONE time that Dr. Bob said I was wrong, and that was when I stated my position badly. In trying to tell people to stop JUST reading Paul and to read the whole bible, Dr. Bob and others thought I meant not to read Paul.

If there are others, by all mean, show me.

Now, where are your scriptures to support your position biblically? Its fun to sit back and try to attack my personally, but where are your scriptures? Where is God in your posting AV?

Granny? Where is God in your mocking posts? Where is scripture in your stances?

Where is Christain uplifting?

AV - Satan told Adam and Eve that the command from God not to eat a certain fruit was because that fruit would "make them like God," it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The message was, "You can be like God, you can judge good and you can judge evil."

Well, we aren't, we can't.

That's God's call.
False accusations and lies and attacks on others will get you nowhere TS. I've provided Scripture to refute you. As far as overlooking things, I don't think so, friend. And I can honestly say I'm not selective in my doctrine to suit my own purposes unlike you have been.

Concerning Dr. Bob, he has warned you in another thread just yesterday about your vitrol...you know in one of the MANY threads you started to try and dominate the boards with your one sided doctrine....Shameful that you would lie again. To attack Granny and twist her words is low. Granny is one of the best and most loved posters on the BB, and has a sweet spirit that you will never attain. At least she doesn't spread lies and gossip as you have done, which has had proof posted by another poster. Again, TS, I state, you really do need to grow up and quit working under false presuppositions that you are more holy than anyone else here.

Why should I copy and paste scriptures that you will try and twist to fit your own preconceived notions of what the Bible is talking about??? Anyone can cut and paste verses, but if they're twisted by to fit your own presuppositions, they're absolutely without value. You're reasoning again, is circular and full of lies and inuendo towards others.
 

Charles Meadows

New Member
AV,

Shameful that you would lie again. To attack Granny and twist her words is low. Granny is one of the best and most loved posters on the BB, and has a sweet spirit that you will never attain. At least she doesn't spread lies and gossip as you have done, which has had proof posted by another poster.

This is pretty vitriolic in itself. Sky can never attain such as spirit?

Perhaps if we all stop posts like this we can get back to the debates.
 

patrick

New Member
Avl,

To resort to name calling is a little childish. I see that a lot in my 5 year old son and his friends. I tell Sky not to get upset. You call me a milque toast Christian. I think that is very mature.

I think it is very funny. I see the smile, I hope you were joking. I did just notice that. So, if it was tounge in cheek.....cool, you got me!!!!
 

patrick

New Member
People should choose their words carefully. Then they could not be twisted. I read the post about "puke" and I would probally have taken it the same way. We share our deepest convictions on this board and passion run high. We see a post like that and we can take it in a way that others might not have meant.

Right Larry??? I had some problems with him. I hope we worked it out. I changed not my feelings but the words I used to respond with.

We don't have to always attack to get our points across. Jumping on with both feet is not the way to go.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
AV -

*Sigh*
Talk about "taking scritpure out of context.

Let's look at your posts IN context.

You referred to 2 Timothy
Let's REALLY look at it.
I don't know what translation you used, but I'm using NIV.

2 Timothy 4:1 -2 reads
(1) "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing, and his kingdom, I give you this charge, (2) Preach the word; be prepared in season an dout of season; correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction.

Notice two things. VS one says Christ Jesus will judge. Verse two says encourage and use great patience and careful instruction when rebuking or correcting.

Which is what I have said over and over and over. "Correct, but correct in love."

For those of you who only use King James, the phrase "exhort with all longsuffering " means "encourage, correct with patience and love."

Looks like Paul and I agree on that one.

Paul and I also agree on the rest of it. There are false teachers out there. Men who teach that Christ does not love, for instance. Or men who teach that Christians should not correct with love, patience and encouragement for instance.

Now:
You used 1 Thessalonians 5:21. That's one of my favorite passages of the bible.

Let me put it BACK into context.

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this God's will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not put out the Spirit's fire, do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good, avoid every kind of evil."

Now, the same man who wrote that passage, stated:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries, and all knowledge, but have not love, I am nothing."
"And if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
"If I give all I possess to the poor, and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."
"Love is patient."
"Love is kind."
"It does not eney. It is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered."
"It keeps no record of wrongs."
"It does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth."
"It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
"Love never fails."
"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge; it will passs way. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes the imperfect disappears."
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection in the mirror, then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully know."
"And now, these three remain. Faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love."
"Follow the way of love, amd eagerly desire spiritual gifts."

That was I Corinthinans 13:1 to 1 Corinthians 14:1


But - apparently, the doctorine of love is "false doctorine" and "blaspheme," because one verse in Timothy sort of mentions correcting with a hint at encouragement and patience.
 

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Sorry, TS. I don't take scripture out of context, neither do I try to apply just certain sections to my own theology. Here again, on the other hand, you have done nothing but do this. *Sigh* :rolleyes:
 

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Also, TS, I never stated the doctrine of love was false doctrine...Again the twisting of words by you. You truly are a sorry person to lie about people.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
AV,

I have repeatedly stated that Christians should correct with love. So I have NOT implied that correction is totally wrong.

I have stated it must be done in love, and I've posted scripture to support that.

I have shown a lot of scripture about love.

So, when you come back at me, and accuse me like you have of "twisted doctorine," and "one-sided doctorine," or such things, I assume you are trying to teach against love.

That seems to be what you bring up in your condemnation of me.

You said, "TexasSky has tunnel vision when it comes to the love of God."

And following my post about Matthew, you wrote.

Here again, a twisted bit of doctrine by TexasSky....how unoriginal. Texas...is God also a God of judgement and Holiness or not? You seem to overlook this particular thing. Nobody is saying God isn't love.
-------

If you aren't saying that, AV, what ARE you objecting to?

That I think you have no right to look down on others? You're right, I think you have no right to look down on others.

That I think correction should be loving?
You're right, I think you have to correct with love.

That I think you're mean spirited?
Well, you're right. I do think you are.

I think your comments about me and to me are snide, rude, and unChristlike personal attacks.

If your intentions were Godly, you would have been able to say, "Sky, I agree that God loves, but in Timothy God said that we need to correct one another." You wouldn't have said, "You have tunnel vision about his love!"

But I DO have tunnel vision about his love.

Without his love, none of the rest of it matters.

None of it.

Without his love, we're doomed to the hell we earned.

So yeah, I get a little emotional about His love.

[ June 21, 2005, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]
 

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
TS, I again have nowhere stated that correction should not be done in love. And as far as vitrol and judgment...again, look in the mirror lady! Remove that moat from your own eye first.

As far as "tunnel vision" concerning Christs love...nobody is saying you shouldn't talk of Christs love towards mankind and the unsaved and Christians. I am saying however that you lean too far to one side to the detriment of the truth.

To make the assumptions that you mentioned in your post is your fault, not mine. I have REPEATEDLY STATED that I'm not against that. I am against not teaching the whole counsel of God.
 

GrannyGumbo

<img src ="/Granny.gif">
Thank you AVL for your sweet kind words...we've had our differences, eh, concerning u-no-who
...but you have always shown me respect abundantly. I could get used to that.
laugh.gif


You're right about the whole counsel of God. In order to have love, there must be hate. And yes, God is love, but He is also "a consuming fire". When we're out on the streets, we find folks hold an imbalanced view of God &gt;love, grace & mercy of God at the expense of His holiness, righteousness & justice. Yes, God is perfectly balanced. And He is loving, gracious, and merciful as well as holy, righteous and just. But He also hates. Does He love those in Hell? Does He love the "workers" of iniquity? What about the "hands" that shed innocent blood (this would include the baby-murdering doctors). If we're to always show love and forgiveness, does that mean we will be inviting Osama over for dinner? Or how about that serial killer? I think not!

Someone has said that truth out of balance with other truth becomes untruth. Someone else said truth is hate to those that hate truth.
 
O

OCC

Guest
Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
AV,

Shameful that you would lie again. To attack Granny and twist her words is low. Granny is one of the best and most loved posters on the BB, and has a sweet spirit that you will never attain. At least she doesn't spread lies and gossip as you have done, which has had proof posted by another poster.

This is pretty vitriolic in itself. Sky can never attain such as spirit?

Perhaps if we all stop posts like this we can get back to the debates.
AV...to say "Granny is one of the best and most loved posters on the BB" is wrong! We are not to favour some people over others. Also, to say "at least she doesn't lie..." implies that she DOES do some other kind of sin for which you are excusing her for. That kinda violates the "holiness of God" doctrine you so one-sidedly espouse does it not?
 

Rachel

New Member
Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Thank you AVL for your sweet kind words...we've had our differences, eh, concerning u-no-who
...but you have always shown me respect abundantly. I could get used to that.
laugh.gif


You're right about the whole counsel of God. In order to have love, there must be hate. And yes, God is love, but He is also "a consuming fire". When we're out on the streets, we find folks hold an imbalanced view of God &gt;love, grace & mercy of God at the expense of His holiness, righteousness & justice. Yes, God is perfectly balanced. And He is loving, gracious, and merciful as well as holy, righteous and just. But He also hates. Does He love those in Hell? Does He love the "workers" of iniquity? What about the "hands" that shed innocent blood (this would include the baby-murdering doctors). If we're to always show love and forgiveness, does that mean we will be inviting Osama over for dinner? Or how about that serial killer? I think not!

Someone has said that truth out of balance with other truth becomes untruth. Someone else said truth is hate to those that hate truth.
Do you pray for ALL the unbelievers in the world to come to Christ?
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
originally posted by Granny Gumbo
You're right about the whole counsel of God. In order to have love, there must be hate. And yes, God is love, but He is also "a consuming fire". When we're out on the streets, we find folks hold an imbalanced view of God &gt;love, grace & mercy of God at the expense of His holiness, righteousness & justice. Yes, God is perfectly balanced. And He is loving, gracious, and merciful as well as holy, righteous and just. But He also hates. Does He love those in Hell? Does He love the "workers" of iniquity? What about the "hands" that shed innocent blood (this would include the baby-murdering doctors). If we're to always show love and forgiveness, does that mean we will be inviting Osama over for dinner? Or how about that serial killer? I think not!
originally posted by AVL1984
As far as "tunnel vision" concerning Christs love...nobody is saying you shouldn't talk of Christs love towards mankind and the unsaved and Christians. I am saying however that you lean too far to one side to the detriment of the truth.
One of my very favorite passages in the Bible is John 3:14-21. Everyone can quote John 3:16, but it seems that they forget about verses 17-18. "For God sent not his Son into the word to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath no believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Condemned already.....sounds like they are already suffering the "hate" of God. It seems as if Christ is telling us that the world already knows hate and condemnation. Can we really err then in being too loving?

I'm not talking about making excuses for wrongdoing. IMO and experience, those who have done wrong, KNOW they have done wrong. They just don't know what to do about it and so try to defend themselves by building a wall of excuses that can't be penetrated by more accusations/hate.

We are sent to be salt and light. Can hate bring light?

Isn't this whole discussion covered by the old saying "hate the sin, love the sinner"? Perhaps some of us have a hard time separating the two, especially in these days when sin abounds.
 

massdak

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by TexasSky:
Mark 2:15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his discples, for there were any who followed him. When the teachers of the law who wer Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples, Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners." (Reminds me of a few people on this board.)
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mark 3:4 Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath; to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent. (If you are wondering about the context. Some legalists were complaing that by picking grain to keep from starving the disciples were violating God's law. They cared more about their legalism than they did about God's love of man.)

Mark 3:32-34 has an interesting little thing:
A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him, and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Back in Matthew, he told us his will was that we love one another.)

Mark 7:5-8 is a rather frightening set of verses for modern Pharisees too.

"So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with unclean hands?" He replied, "Isaiah was righ when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written. "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain, their teachings are but rules taught by men." You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the traditions of men. And he said to them You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother, and anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death, but you say, that is a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever help you might otherise have received from me is Corban (that is a gift devoted to God) then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition, that you have handed down, and you do many things like that. [/b} (Gee, maybe NOT helping a sinner because he is a sinner? Or maybe NOT helping a sinner because you have to be at church everytime the doors open instead of helping at the homeless shelter? You think "I don't have to love him because he isn't a Christian," falls into "nullifying the word of God," ?)

Mark 9:38-41 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop because he was not one of us." (Sounds familiar doesn't it? Billy Graham is unsaved because he didn't condemn others) "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me for whoever is not against us if for us." (Hmm, Billy seems to always be calling people to Christ, would that mean that he could be for us?) I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Mark 10:18 and on : "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered, "No one is good - except god alone. You know the commandments: do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother." "Teacher," he declared, "All these I have kept since I was a boy." Jesus looked at him and loved him, "One thing you lack." he said, "Go, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Them come, follow me.

The ONLY thing the boy lacked was love enough to sacrifice his for the poor. The ONLY thing.

Mark 11:25 "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." (There is is again. Forgive so you can be forgiven. What if you DON'T forgive? What if you hold onto that righteous right to feel superior?)

Mark 12:28-29

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?

"The most important one," answered Jesus, is this: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all our heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
THE SECOND IS THIS: "Love your neighbor as yourself." THERE IS NO COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE."
(There it is AGAIN. Obviously, he must have meant something else. I mean, surely all you people preaching hate and judgment and unforgiveness can explain it away some how. Christ must not have MEANT that when he said it. Or wait, maybe it ONLY applied to that Pharisee. Sure, that's it. Couldn't have applied to EVERYONE could it?)

That's Mark.
texassky it seems you have a problem with the Lord and not Christians whom you believe are pharisees, you believe a persons conversion is not based on giving the gospel only and believing it is the Holy Spirit that converts, you believe that it is behavior that is responsible for how many can be saved. what a shame that you put so much credibility on mere men. i do not believe you are the wake up call for better Christian love.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
Av

" am saying however that you lean too far to one side to the detriment of the truth. "

Andy the Truth is
"That God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son into the world that whosever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

You can't over state that.
You can't "lean too far into that."

That IS the message of Christ.

The people had the judgmental law before He, came, Andy. - It didn't save them.

The people had their pious finger-pointers - They couldn't save themselves or each other.

The people had the will to do what was right,and the people who really thought they were doing what was right, and Christ told them, "No, you still haven't got it."

There is "over stating" the love of Christ. It is totally impossible to overstate it.

It is impossibe to even come close to stating how amazing it is!

Don't you get that, Andy?
Jesus Christ - God Himself - became a man, a human being in a poverty striken, disease ridden, hate-filled world as an expression of love for men like Matthew who ripped off his own people, for men like Saul who murdered believers, for men like Peter who denied knowing Him three times.

He went through the cat-of-9-tails so that you, when you were the worst sinner you've ever been in your live - didn't have to.

He wore a crown of thorns so that me, when I was an unsaved kid fed up calling his love a lie, wouldn't have to.

He went to the cross for people that hated Him, had nails driven into His hands and feet, a sword shoved into His, as He hung for hours and hours in a hot sun - surrounded by people who had been there to SEE, first hand, the miracles He performed on earth, and who asked that a killer be set free so that HE would die, and his prayer was "Father forgive them."

This is NOT a God that looks at His own children, the children who LOVE Him back and says, "Get out of my sight!"

This is a God that comes like a loving parent and says, "Don't do that, you'll hurt yourself, just as surely as if you stuck your hand into an open flame. Listen to me. I love you, stop hurting yourself."

We, as Christians, are to "guide" one another, Andy, NOT condemn one another, NOT judge one another.

You can say, "THIS IS WRONG," without sitting in judgment.

I am doing that now. I am telling, you, Christian to Christian - if you think it is possible to over-state, or to "lean too much" toward the Love of Christ - you are WRONG.

That doesn't make you a bad Christian. That doesn't make me "better than you."

It just means I love you enough to say, "LOOK at the LOVE. Put it first, all the rest hang on this."

That's what HE said in his Holy Word. "All the rest hang on love," Andy.

If we can't get the love right - we can't get the rest right.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
Now - regarding calling me a liar.

If I misunderstand the message you are sending - it is not intentional. I am telling you what you have communicated to me.

In the same light, if you misunderstand the message I am sending (and you have, I can tell this clearly by thoughts, statements and ideas you have attributed to me that are incorrect), I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is not intentional.

However - calling me a liar - IS intentional. It IS slander, and it is WRONG. It is un-Christ like.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Massdak, I don't think the discussion here is over "giving the gospel only and believing it is the Holy Spirit that converts". I don't think that anyone disputes that.

What this discussion seems to be about is HOW we present the gospel. On whether we beat people over the head with their sins and the fact that they've been condemned to hell in hopes that it will scare them into heaven. Or if we should present the Good News in a more loving manner, seeking to put Christ's sacrifice between their sins and God because they are already condemned.(condemnation is already complete so we present the solution)
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
For those wondering - Menageriekeeper's interpretation of the discussion fits what I feel it is about.
 
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