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Featured Mary always a virgin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rstrats, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    I was sitting at my desk thinking deep thoughts when a new one crept into my mind. Luke has Mary, who at the time was engaged to Joseph, being told by an angel that she will (future tense) conceive and give birth to a son. She replies by asking how that would be possible since she hasn't had any activity necessary to bring that about. I wonder why she would say that unless she also didn't plan on ever having that activity in the future after she was married? If, so, that might seem to be support for some religious organizations' assertion that she was forever virgin.
     
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    How you explain Jude and James?
     
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Mary and Joseph got their freak on! :)
    They had sex to the glory and honor of God in worship. Why would she deny God the gift of sex that God gave to her and Joseph?
     
  4. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    I don't understand what they have to do with this topic. What do you have in mind?
     
  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    James, Jude, Joses, and Simon were Jesus half brothers born of Mary.
     
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  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Well, if you want to be nitpickingly technical about it, the helping verb "will" doesn't have a designated tense.

    • It could be right now, present. "I will put that letter in the mailbox right now."
    • It could be shortly, future. "I will go to the store tomorrow."
    • It could be a long time away, distant future. "Lord, willing, I willl celebrate my 100th birthday in forty years."

    So.....what did the angel mean by "will"? I think we have to look at the context. Mary took it to mean immediately. Which is pretty much what happened.

    How do we know it was immediate? Mary, as soon as Gabriel gave her the message, went to visit Elizabeth, who the Bible says was 6 months pregnant. Luke says "at that time Mary got ready and HURRIED" to see her cousin. Both Elizabeth AND her unborn son, John, acknowledged Mary AS pregnant.

    In this context of Luke's telling of Mary's story, "will" means immediate or present,

    i have no idea what our Catholic brothers and sisters base their perpetual vriginity of Mary on, but Matthew CLEARLY, CLEARLY explains that Mary and Joseph did not have sex as a married couple UNTIL after Jesus was born.

    In my opinion, NOT because sex would have defile the fetus, Jesus, but so that no one could ever say that Jesus was conceived from sex.

    Mary only had to stay a virgin just as long as she was pregnant with Jesus. After that, she and Joesph had normal relations and bore several chilldren. Four more boys and at least two girls.
     
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  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Scripture also record Jesus had “sisters”, so Mary had at least 6 children beside Jesus.

    peace to you
     
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  8. VDMA

    VDMA New Member

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    As a confessional Lutheran I’m baffled by Baptist/Evangelicalism. This is a hard teaching for most Protestant. They get hung up on “brothers” and calling the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary the Mother of God (not all). Many suffer from “Romeaphobia” for the sake of being anti-Roman Catholic.

    On the subject of semper virgo of Mary, exegetically, the perpetual virginity of Mary is 100% plausible. Any honest Theologian cannot dogmatically deny the perpetual virginity of Blessed Virgin St. Mary.

    It cannot be proven exegetically from sacred scripture and the church fathers that Mary had children, that so many Protestants enthusiastically insist, then berate those who side with what the historic church has always taught. This ideas that the Blessed Virgin St. Mary (She is the Ark of the living God. The Theotokos) was not a perpetual virgin is novel and runs contrary to the historic church.

    Even Calvin, Charles and John Wesley, and even Zwingli of all people (the error of Nestorius was resurrected by Zwingli) etc., adhered to the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary. In most cases it really comes down to having a low view of Christology.

    Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Dr. Martin Luther Isaiah 7:14 (LWV16): She shalt conceive. In Hebrew it is “has conceived,” and that is the indication of a miracle; it is as if the prophet were already seeing it. Again, since he says that it is God’s sign, it is necessary that that conception and birth be in a different manner than is commonly and naturally the case, for it would not be a sign if one who today is a virgin would become pregnant after a half year. Therefore she has to be both a virgin and with child. Matthew 1:21 f. clearly explains this.

    Immanuel. This describes what kind of person it will be. This is not a proper name. He is indeed the Son of a virgin, and yet He is “God with us,” therefore God and man.

    If the Blessed Virgin St. Mary had other children (St. Joseph was dead) then why was she entrusted to Apostle John at his Crucifixion if she had other natural sons to care for her (Jn 19:26–27)? ‍♂️

    Mark 6:3 brother … his sisters: Jesus’ cousins or more distant relatives. They are not siblings from the same Virgin Mother.

    1. These brethren are never called the children of Mary, although Jesus himself is (Jn 2:1; 19:25; Acts 1:14).

    2. Two names mentioned, James and Joseph, are sons of a different “Mary” in Mt 27:56 (Mk 15:40).

    3. It is unlikely that Jesus would entrust his Mother to the Apostle John at his Crucifixion if she had other natural sons to care for her (Jn 19:26–27).

    4. The word “brethren” (Gk. adelphoi) has a broader meaning than blood brothers. Since ancient Hebrew had no word for “cousin”, it was customary to use “brethren” in the Bible for relationships other than blood brothers. In the Greek OT, a “brother” can be a nearly related cousin (1 Chron 23:21–22), a more remote kinsman (Deut 23:7; 2 Kings 10:13–14), an uncle or a nephew (Gen 13:8), or the relation between men bound by covenant (2 Sam 1:26; cf. 1 Sam 18:3). Continuing this OT tradition, the NT often uses “brother” or “brethren” in this wider sense. Paul uses it as a synonym for his Israelite kinsmen in Rom 9:3. It also denotes biologically unrelated Christians in the New Covenant family of God (Rom 8:29; 12:1; Col 1:2; Heb 2:11; Jas 1:2).

    I’m 100% certain the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary, the Ark of the living God, the mother of God, birthed no other children and remained a Virgin; before, burning and after His birth. The perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary cannot exegetically be disproved.

    https://ref.ly/o/lw16/224163?length=410 via @Logos

    Hope that helps. May God’s grace and peace be with you.
     
    #8 VDMA, Nov 17, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  9. VDMA

    VDMA New Member

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    Why are Protestant so obsessed with Joseph have sex with the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary, the Ark of the living God (Theotokos), the mother of God (emphasis added). No Joseph did not have sex with the Ark of the living God the Theotokos.

    Matthew 1:24–25

    "What Joseph thought is left to our imagination. Matthew tells what he did. He obeyed the angel’s order as one coming from Yahweh by bringing his wife to his home and thus consummating the marriage entered into at the time of the betrothal.

    Matthew 1:24–25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

    1:25: This means only that Joseph had nothing to do with the conception of Jesus. It implies nothing as to what happened afterward.

    "24) And Joseph, having arisen from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord ordered him and took possession of his wife and did not know her until she gave birth to a son; and he called his name Jesus. What Joseph thought is left to our imagination. Matthew tells what he did. He obeyed the angel’s order as one coming from Yahweh by bringing his wife to his home and thus consummating the marriage entered into at the time of the betrothal.

    25) Normally this would include marital sexual intercourse. But the angel’s revelation to Joseph concerning the divine nature of the child Mary had conceived, to which was undoubtedly added Mary’s communication about Gabriel’s appearance and revelation to her, caused Joseph to forego this marital right. The euphemism οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτήν is frequently found in the Greek, also in the Hebrew and the Latin. The idea is “to know intimately,” i.e., sexually, the verb being intensified. The imperfect tense intends to take the reader to the point marked by “until.” Yet this clause, like all similar clauses in the New Testament, neither states nor implies what occurred afterward."

    https://ref.ly/o/lenski01/93091?length=1125 via @Logos
     
    #9 VDMA, Nov 17, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Scripture makes it plain that Mary had at least 6 other children after Jesus. While some say they were Joe's by a previous marriage, there's not a quark of Scripture supporting this. To say they didn't act like Jesus was the eldest is ridiculous. Besides, it's countered by the other Nazarenes comparing Jesus with His siblings except for His abilities & knowledge.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Mark 6:3 “Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, Jose, Judas, and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?”

    All that you wrote cannot negate scripture. Mary had at least six children after Jesus.

    Why are people so hung up on Mary having sex, and children, with her husband?

    What purpose does it serve to ignore scripture and pretend she was a perpetual virgin?

    peace to you
     
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  12. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    This quote from the link you provided is nonsense. I can cite for you all of the "similar clauses in the New Testament" that contain the word "until" and show that that we know PRECISELY what happened afterward as it IS stated or heaviy implied.

    Did you just post the link and copy/paste the contents and not actually read it for yourself? I can't imagine anyone saying all the clauses of the "until" nature do not disclose what happened afterward.

    "Until" in ALL of these verses means that something either stopped or started. The opposite occurred after the word "until". Don't take my word for it. Here is the Bible proof. Your assertion that we do not know what happened after the word "until" and ANY of these passages is not supported from the Bible.

    I'm only posting four verses, but there are 57 with this same phrasing.

    • Matthew 2:13 = "Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word..." That means that after the angel brought him word, that Joseph did the opposite: The family STOPPED living in Egypt. The opposite of what WAS occuring now occurred.
    • Luke 17:27 = "They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all." We KNOW what after the word "until". They STOPPED eating and drinking and being given in marriage....they all died. The opposite of what WAS occurring, now occurred.
    • Luke 22:19 = "For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." This is CLEAR. Jesus will START or renew his consumption of the fruit of the vince once the kingdom of God will come. The opposite of what WAS occurring, will occurr.
    • John 9:18 = "But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight." It's not rocket science. Before they talked to his parents, they did not believe. After they talked to his parents, they STARTED to believe. The opposite of what WAS happening, now happened.
    This goes on and on and on and on in ALL 57 VERSES that contain this word.

    It's CRYSTAL clear.

    Mary and Joseph did not have marital relations UNTIL Jesus was born. Before his birth = no sex. After the birth of Jesus = normal husband/wife relations.






     
    #12 Scarlett O., Nov 18, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I see no support for it in the Scriptures.
    As others have pointed out, Mary had other children after the Lord Jesus was born per Mark 6:3:

    " Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."

    Also we see these:

    " While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
    47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
    48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

    49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." ( Matthew 12:46-50 ).

    " Then came to him [his] mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
    20 And it was told him [by certain] which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
    21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it."
    ( Luke 8:19-21 ).

    " There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
    32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
    33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

    34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." ( Mark 3:31-35 ).

    " And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
    56 among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children."
    ( Matthew 27:55-56 ).

    " There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
    41 (who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him ) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem."
    ( Mark 15:40-41 ).
     
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    But it can by reading the words above and believing them for what they say.
     
    #14 Dave G, Nov 18, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Why are you obsessed with Mary having no libido?
    God created sex so that one man and one woman in marriage union would glorify God through sex.
    Why would you require that Mary not glorify God with Joseph?
     
  16. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    The cult of Mary raises its head
     
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  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    She said that because she was not yet married. Has nothing to do with perpetual virginity.
     
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  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I believe the concept of half brothers is based on the notion that the ovum of Mary was used for conceiving Jesus, which resulted in 50% of Jesus genes were from Mary and the other 50% of His genes were from the Holy Spirit. I believe this is wrong, and Jesus got 100% of His genes from God.
    Is the ovum designed to be fertilized with the Holy Spirit?
    Jesus showed up with His Body as the Malack many times in the OT.
    Genesis 31:11-13 shows Malack מַלְאַךְ
    The Angel said to Jacob that He is the God at the House of God.
    This Angel appeared in Gen 18:1- and ate the meals provided by Abraham.
    Also, this Angel showed up to Manoa the parent of Samson. ( Judges 13)
    So, Jesus had His own body before the Creation of the world and Adam was created in the likeness of the Son of God ( Gen 1:26-28)
    If Jesus had the DNAs from Mary, He could have the sins.
    What the Holy Spirit did was to make Jesus carrying the smallest body, in the form of the embryo
    Therefore, Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus, but the Surrogate Mother for the Son of God when He came in the form of Embryo like In-vitro
    Jesus had the body given by God, 100% DNA from God, so that He became another Adam without belonging to the Adam's Race. Jesus was like Adam before the Fall.
    Therefore I believe the relationship between James, Jude, Simon,Jose,.. and Jesus was the relationship between the brothers and the adopted son. There was no blood relations between 2 parties.
    Mary was not the biological mother though she was pregnant with Jesus and delivered Him
    Jesus carried no genes of Diabetes, Leukemia, MS, or any other genetic disease and therefore His Body was perfect without spot, without Blemish.
    This is confirmed by the verse of Matthew 1:20 as it says Gennao verb which was used for BEGOT in the previous verses. Jesus was already born in the womb of Maryam before He was born out to the world ( Mt 1:25)

    God Bless


    Eliyahu
     
    #18 Eliyahu, Nov 19, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
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  19. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    How. Could 50% of His genes be from Mary, yet 100% DNA from God?


    I’m confused
     
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I never said so. 100% of His genes were from God or His own.
    In order to clarify this point, I meant the concept of half brothers is based on the notion that Mary's ovum was used for Jesus, which I disagree.

    Eliyahu
     
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