1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mary the mother of God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro. Ruben, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eliyahu,

    If you want to discuss soul sleep, start a new thread. If you want to speculate about who is doing what or feeling what or calling whomever what in places we cannot see right now, go ahead but don't expect me to speculate with you.

    As for Mary being his mother, he still has flesh (Luke 24:39) and is still man (1 Tim 2:5) as well as God.

    As for your question about James, I'm not sure if he was a true brother and not just a relative (cousin, etc.). However, if he was a true brother, he would be a half-brother of Jesus, and I would have no problem with the term "half-brother of God" if used in the same way I accept/use the term "mother of God".
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Natters,

    If you admit that Jesus is the descendant of David and that Jesus is God, then do you call David as Great Grand Father of God? or the Ancestor of God? or do you call Adam the Ancestor of God?

    I never deny Jesus has the flesh and yes, He will show us the bruised hands and feet. But the flesh is not all about Him, which Paul was speaking about in 2 Cor 16.

    James is mentioned as Adelpos of Lord ( Gal 1:19) Cousin or Nephew in Greek is Anepsius.

    Your method of interpretating the words is the
    typical method by Roman Catholic, denying the Word and language of the Bible, because Bible clearly says "James the Lord' Brother" Gal 1:19.

    Do you believe that Mary had sons and daughters?
    Which Mary is Mk 15:47 and Mk 16:1? You may know very well about the Mother of God, therefore would you please answer my questions?
     
  3. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Knowing whether Mary is sleeping or not is not to difficult to the believers in Christ as I explained in the previous posting. Please read carefully. All the people who died in Christ is now taking rest.
     
  4. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elihyahu,

    My last answer about James didn't give you enough info? Again, I would have no problem with a term like "forefather of God" if used in the same way I accept/use the term "mother of God".

    I am well aware of that. It's the same word as used in Matt 5:22-24, 7:3-5, etc (which I don't think is referring to biological brothers), Matt 12:49-50 (in reference to his disciples), and similarly throughout the New Testament of relatives, fellow believers, etc.

    Do the passages I just mentioned (and many many others) also deny the Word and language of the Bible - or do they simply show an error in your understanding?

    I'm not sure, for the reason of multiple meanings for "adelphos" as I just illustrated.
     
  5. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Natters,
    Thank you very much for your kind answers.

    The reason why I raised such question is because we have to accept the meanings used for each word, otherwise there can be a big chaos in interpretting the Bible. Brother in Bible show up about 330 times in NT and can have 3 meanings:

    1) Brothers (sg: Adelpos, pl: Adelpoi) Sisters(Adelpe)as family member
    2) Brothers in the Lord : Paul used this often and the majority of Brothers in NT were used for this usage. This means brothers and sisters( in greek almost the same as brother) having the belief in God.
    3) Brothers meaning Jewish fellow citizens because Israelites were the descendants of the same patriarchs and they were supposed to be the believers in God. Stephen mentioned this in Ac 7:2 and our Lord Jesus mentioned in Mt 5:23, 7:3 and in many other verses.

    When we read Jn 7:5 neither his brethren believe in him. This shows that brethren (Adelpoi) was used for the people who did not believe in him. Therefore they were not brethren in faith. In that verse, if John was mentioning just simply Brothers as Jewish citizens, there was no need to specifically mention them because there were many Jews who did not believe in Him.

    For relatives, there is another Greek word "sungenes" as in Lk 1:36 and Rome 16:7.

    Therefore we can believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters as per Mark 6:3. If we deny the language and words used there, then we can deny even the word, mother too. For example, Mary the mother of Jesus was at the wedding ceremony in Cana. If the word "mother" can be used for Mother's sisters, then we can say that Mary was not at the wedding ceremony, asking how can anyone call his mother "Woman"? as Jesus was respecting the Mosaic law and should respect His mother? or One can also say that Mary was not at the scene of Cross because the word Mother can mean any relative and the mother in Jn 19:25 might be relative because He called her again "Woman". Then there will be big chaos in language.
    Such chaos was not wanted by God, and we can have very clear understanding if we accept the meaning of the language for each word.

    If we read NT carefully, in which meaning the word "Brother" is used, is very clear and in Gospel, apparently Jesus, Brother of James meant family relation.

    If we look at Mark 6:3, calling Jesus as "son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Judah, and Simon, and his sisters are with us"

    Gal 1: 19 says James, Lord's Brother, and Mark 6:3 Jesus as Brother of Jesus.

    then Mark 15:47 says Mary, Mother of Joses.
    Mark 15:40 says Mary, Mother of James and Joses.
    The Vatican text describes this " Mary of Josetos" in Mk 15:47, Mk 15:40 and also Brother of Josetos again in Mk 6:3. This Josetos is nowhere shown other than these three verses. Whenever Josetos is mentioned, he was connected with Mary and Jesus, and as son of Mary.

    On the one hand Bible says, Jesus is Brother of James, then James is Lord's Brother.
    On the other hand, Mary of Josetos, Jesus is brother of Josetos.(Mk 15:47 and 6:3)

    In such case, does Bible mention Brother as " a fellow citizn or Jewish citizen"? Or brother in faith? If it was meant for Brother in faith, why Peter was not mentioned as Lord's brother?


    Therefore I believe that Mary had sons and daughters other than Jesus and she came along with other sons to Jesus as in Mt 12: 47.

    Should we call all the brothers and sisters as " Sister of God, Brothers of God"? then other ancestors "Ancestors of God, Forefathers of God?"
    Someone say that Heli was the father of Mary, others say Jacob was the father of Mary, others say Joachim and Anna bore Mary, then shall we call Joachim is the Grandfather of God and Anna is the Grandmom of God?

    Anyhow, Joseph lived as the husband of Mary, then shall we call him God's step father or God's mother's husband?

    Finally I want to ask this question to the people who call Mary as the Mother of God:

    Why do you think Bible mention nowhere Mary as the Mother of God?
    Is it because Disciples and writers forgot it? or didn't know it? Why Paul mentioned her as "Woman" in Gal 4:4, Isn't that a blasphemy to Mother of God?
     
  6. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eliyahu, I've heard it all before. I still remain uncertain, as those arguments are not completely convincing. As well, the topic of Mary having other children should be in another thread, as it is too far off topic in my opinion.

    I've already answered this sort of question twice before. Do you not understand my answer, or do you hope that asking over and over will somehow change things?

    This has been address previously in the thread. There are many terms that we use/accept that are not in scripture.

    Of course not. Quite the opposite.
     
  7. Kiffen

    Kiffen Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it has been stated earlier that the Bible does say Mary is the Mother of God.

    [43] But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?(Luke 1:43)

    Elisabeth states that Mary is the mother of my Lord (God).

    Paul affirms the complete humanity of Christ just as Elisabeth affirmed that God had come in the flesh in the womb of Mary.

    The focus of the term, Mother of God is on Jesus, not Mary. This term was not rejected by Luther, Calvin or Zwingli. It is more Romophobia.
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have no objection to "Mother of Jesus" at all because Bible uses the term.
    But I find Mother of God nowhere in the Bible!

    Could Paul not explain the humanity of Jesus saying He came of Mother of God under the law? "(Gal 4:4) Isn't it impossible

    Luther remained as the priest of Roman Catholic until he died. Calvin was raised at RC family and his doctrine is not very different from RC. He wrote Institutes of Christian Religion where he mentioned Infant Baptism, Sprinking Baptism are OK, Salvation may be deprived if the person is not baptized.Also, he preached the sacraments should be conducted by Pastors only ( or by other clergy system) therefore his doctrine is very much different from th Bible teaching, but similar to Roman Catholic. I already mentioned that Calvin executed so many people and what he had done was very similar to what was done by Paul before he was converted on the way to Damascus. I am not certain about the salvation of Calvin. Please check with the other thread " Calvin Murderer?" as: http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3477.html

    I do not know about Zwingli but my understanding about the Reformers is that they mostly made a lot of mistakes in discerning the truth.

    Again I am not objecting to "Mother of Jesus" the expression used in Bible and it is my belief that we should remain in the expression of Bible, instead of extending and expanding the words by using the theology.

    I explained about Luke 1:43

    Did Elizabeth call " Mother of God" ?
    Also, Lord in Hebrew is Adonai, and Adonai was used for Jehova very often, but it was used for any superior person as well, as we note in Gen 24:42 when the servant of Abraham called Abraham.
    Any superior person was called Lord (Adonai) Also, Sarah called her husband Abraham "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) Did Sarah call Abraham as God?
    There is an apparent difference in spelling "Lord" and "God"

    Again, Joseph was the husband of Mary, and he was step-father of Jesus, then shall we have to call him " God's Stepfather" Stepfather of God" or "God's Mother's Husband" ?

    Why are people so much eager to call Mary as Mother of God?
    It is because human nature has so strong desire to have "Goddess" as we notice in Jeremiah 44:15-25

    Please remember that God is jeaous (Deut. 4:24)and Bible doesn't have such word " Mother of God" anywhere because it can cause problems with worshipping goddess and contradicts the fact that no one existed before God.

    Mary was created by God and God created everything thru Jesus (Eph 3:9 and Col 1:16-18)

    God made many dishes, bowls, and pots, then he entered into one pot of them came out of there. Then when we saw the pot, should we call it as Mother of God"?

    Mary was only the mother for the human nature of Jesus only for a limited short time among the eternity. This is why Bible calls her Mother of Jesus in order to identify her among many Mary's.

    [ December 10, 2005, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
     
  9. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Really? Wow, I've never heard that statement before on this thread. :rolleyes:

    4 and counting.

    Bullocks.

    Here we go again... :eek:

    Repeating yourself over and over is not accomplishing anything.
     
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    i think I told the truth enough. I think you don't read my posting even though I posted several times that Mother of God is nowhere in the Bible.
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you know who calls Mary the Mother of God?
    Roman Catholic.
     
  12. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gasp! They also use the term "Trinity" (which also is "nowhere in the Bible") - whatever shall I do?!?
     
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Trinity has the biblical background much more clearly. However, even though we believe it, we don't say that God was crucified at the Cross,by analogy. Is Mary Mother of Holy Spirit? Holy Spirit is God and God is one. There are not three God, and therefore Is Mary the Mother of God the Father ? or Is Mary the Mother of God Holy Spirit? God is One, Only One.
     
  14. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    But "Trinity" isn't in the Bible, regardless of how "clear" or unclear it is. Wasn't that your basic argument, over and over? About "God is One", I suggest you go back and read through this thread before we waste each other's time any longer. [​IMG]
     
  15. nate

    nate New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    My beliefs:

    1. Praising God
    2. Heaven
    3. She doesn't care
    4. dunno

    Orthodox beliefs:
    1. Interceding for the church
    2. Heaven
    3. She likes the term (as long as it doesn't become worship)
    4. Jesus~Mother, God Mary
     
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To all people who calls Mary the Mother of God.

    Son of God whom you believe must be different from the Son of God mentioned in hte Bible. Please read Hebrew 7:3

    The reason why I asked you to call David, Ancestor of God, Joachim Grandfather of God, Anna Grandmom of God, Adam Ancestor of God, will enlighten you to realize that there is something wrong in your expression and understanding.

    If you do not understand though, you may be praising anonther god, different from Almighty God before whom nobody existed as Isaiah 43:10, as you said God has forefathers and ancestors.

    The True believers believe that God has no forefather, no ancestor, and that Son of God has no Mother as in Hebrew 7:3

    If any religion don't believe such truth that God doesn't have mother, that is not orthodox but heretic.

    God doesn't have his Mother!
     
  17. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eliyahu, it appears you still really don't understand our position, and now you are getting offensive about it. Go ahead, knock down strawmen with all the bluster you can muster.
     
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are the person who is getting offensive, as your post proves.

    I just repeated what you don't understand
     
  19. natters

    natters New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do understand it. It is a strawman. You've been around for the entire thread, you should be fully aware that I agree nobody existed before God. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    13
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks, Natters. As long as you believe so, I would leave you without forcing you any term. I just enjoyed my freedom also, to refuse any term which I believe not biblical or to cause any misunderstanding the role of the creature for the Creator.
     
Loading...