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Featured Matthew 11:27 and salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by canadyjd, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    "...No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those the Son wills to reveal Him."

    Jesus begins by saying all things have been given to Him by the Father. He then goes on to speak of knowing the Son and knowing the Father, which equates to salvation, imho.

    From this verse, is it clear that no one can come into a saving relationship with God unless Jesus wills it?
     
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes. Along with many other such passages.
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, John 1:18; John 6:44-45; John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5; John 17:3; 1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9; etc.
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I believe Christ is already willing that all men will be saved. There is just one point that needs to be filled and that is faith from the man. The man must believe and trust in Christ He has already granted repentance;
    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    MB
     
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  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The passage says Jesus must reveal the Father to those He has chosen in order for them to know the Father.
     
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  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I agree;
    God drew the first few Christians the disciples and after the crucifixion Jesus draws them . No one approaches the Father except through Jesus. Everything concerning Salvation goes through Christ first. All power has been given to Jesus.
    MB
     
  7. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    But to me, it's a little more complicated than that.
    The Lord Jesus always does the will of the Father ( Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42, John 4:34, John 8:29 ).

    His Father's will is that, of all that He has given to Christ, He will lose none of them ( John 6:39 )
    It is His Father's will that everyone that "sees" the Son and believes on Him, should have everlasting life...and that Christ will raise them up on the "last day" ( John 6:40 ).
    The Father has given Christ power over all flesh...so that Christ should give eternal life to as many as His Father has given Him ( John 17:2 ).

    So, the Lord Jesus' will is always in subjection to the Father's will...

    ...and the Father's will is for the Lord Jesus to give eternal life to a select group;
    The ones given to Him by His Father.
     
    #7 Dave Gilbert, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Unless the Father wills it to be such actually...
     
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I guess the issue that strikes me in this passage is the focus on the will of God (Jesus) in salvation.
     
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes but what about the others who are not the object of His will?

    Did He will that they agonize for ETERNITY with absolutely no hope?

    What if it is your mom or dad or son or daughter or a grandchild or a grandparent?

    Just wondering.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The importance of this statement should not be under estimated. It ties with what Jesus said in that prayer that night (John 17:3) about knowing God to have eternal life (1 John 5:12). And that there cannot be any former Christians, by reason one cannot not know God once one actually knows God (1 John 4:7). This ties into one actually knowing the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Romans 1:16; Matthew 11:27-30, ". . . [is] easy . . . .")
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    When praying for lost family members this is a good passage to remember:

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Hank,
    I realize that I am not the person you were addressing in your questions above, but I'd like to have the privilege of answering them from what I see in Scripture, if I may.

    All men are the objects of God's will when it comes to salvation and damnation.
    There is nothing that happens on Earth or in any place in all of Creation, that God does not watch over and exercise His authority over ( Psalms 33:11, Psalms 115:3, Psalms 135:6, Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 40:12-17, Daniel 4:35 ).

    He also made, through Jesus Christ, all things.
    When He spoke the word, it was Christ doing the speaking ( John 1:1-3 ) and doing.
    All things were made by Him, and all things were made for Him ( 1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 11:12, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 2:10 ).

    Mankind, made in the image of God ( Genesis 1:27 ), was specifically made for His glory.
    Believers were specifically made for His glory ( Psalms 100:3, Isaiah 43:7, Ephesians 2:10, , the glory of His grace ( Ephesians 1:6 ).

    God's word says that He has made vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
    The question is asked and answered in Romans 9:21...one for honor, the other for dishonor.

    "Unfortunately" for us as a race, we botched it ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and others ).
    All have sinned ( Romans 3:23 ) and there in none...no one that is righteous or that has not sinned before His face ( 1 Kings 8:46, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10, 1 John 1:8 and others ).

    Did He actively will that most of mankind suffer for all eternity in everlasting punishment?
    This is the point that I believe our finite minds break down and go into a "feedback loop"...
    At the end of the day, I understand it all like this...He knows and purposes things that come to pass.
    We are also fully responsible for our disobedience, and stand before Him as such.
    God's all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful rule and authority functions right along side of man's choices, and even influences them for His own purposes.

    Did He foresee that mankind would fall and decide to save some of us for Himself through a perfect redemption that included precious promises through His Son's blood?
    Yes.
    Does He actively reprobate those that He does not want to have fellowship with, judiciously for being sinners and refusing to repent of those sins?
    Yes.
    Does He know the hearts and minds ( Psalms 44:21, Psalms 69:5, Psalms 139:1-2, Proverbs 15:11, Jeremiah 17:9-10, Acts of the Apostles 1:24, Romans 8:27 ) of every person?
    Yes.
    Do unbelievers outside of Christ have any hope beyond this life?
    No.
    Do they desire that hope?
    No, because it involves "requirements" that they cannot meet...a changed heart ( internal motivation ) and a willingness to not only be reconciled to God, but a trustworthy willingness to keep from wallowing in sin.

    Can the Scriptures represented in many of the things I've stated above, be found in a singular "confession" of other groups of men in history?
    I believe that both London Confessions come very close, as well as several others.

    Regardless of anything we think or do, the Lord is righteous and way ahead of anything we can say or do that He does not and cannot be completely righteous for in his treatment of us.
    He is just, and is infinitely ahead of both us and His angels, when it comes to any "chess game" we might, in our rebellious fist-shaking or questioning of His motives, try to play with Him.
    Most people seem to think that we are not as "bad off" as God's word explicitly states...


    But that's why we need a Saviour, because without Him, we're all done for.:Sick
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Here it may seem that I am addressing you personally, but in reality, I am even more directing the questions to the reader in general:

    Are you willing to put those family members into their proper context, and see them as a distant "second" when compared to your relationship with the Person(s) who have saved you from His eternal wrath?
    Who has saved you for Himself, and a marvelous, eternal relationship that He worked very hard ( from our perspective ) to accomplish... giving up His Son permanently to become a man, who can never be the same as before He sat beside His Father in glory?

    Are you willing to trade it all to walk the narrow path of your Saviour?

    " He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." ( Matthew 10:37 )
    " If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." ( Luke 14:26 )

    Then it shouldn't ultimately matter what He does with them, should it?
    Even though we love them, that love has it's proper place compared to His eternal love for His children...for you, the believer, because He loved you, and gave Himself for you.

    Note:
    Unlike many who teach using the above, I see these passages stating that believers should love Him first, and everything second..."hate", here, means to "love less".
    However, in Romans 9:13, Psalms 5:4-5, Psalms 11:5, Proverbs 6:16-19, God really does hate the sinner, not just the sin; and to me, it does not mean, "to love less".
    It means, to hate ( abhor ), and in a personal way.
    Respectfully,
    When praying for family members that have not believed on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, I think it best to remember His words here:

    " Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven." ( Matthew 6:10 )
    Truly, He does have the keys to Hell and of death, and to me, that has its proper place as well in accordance with John 17:2.


    I hope that helps to answer some of your question, sir.

    May God, in His wisdom, bless you with many good things ( James 1:17 ).:)
     
    #14 Dave Gilbert, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The passage seems clear to me. No one can know the Father (salvation) unless Jesus wills to reveal Him.

    An emotional appeal concerning relatives cannot change the passage.

    Peace to you
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Peter says "us-ward", referring to the promise to Christians or those He had chosen for salvation.

    Peace to you
     
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  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How would you feel about a close one who has been sent to hell?
    Would you just say oh well God didn't want him or her.
    Would you blame God?
    Wouldn't you resent God for not choosing them? Letting them be tortured for ever .Though He choose you for no good reason and deserve to be tortured the same way?
    MB
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It is not emotional, it is a statement of fact.

    If it is emotional canadyjd it is so because you yourself have made it so.

    Here is emotion:

    A person plans to visit mom and dad on the weekend.
    Saturday comes and the person goes over to mom and dad's house.
    Upon arriving the house is engulfed in flames.

    What would be the emotional state of the one visiting mom and dad?
    Frantic no doubt.
    Would the individual turn around to go back home and simply say, "oh well it is the will of God"?

    How much time do we spend in prayer, warning our unsaved mom and dad?

    Whats my point? I think we need to deal with our cold hearts.
    Turn to the one who has POWER to save a soul out of hell:

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No no, you can't isolate that single verse from the context of the beginning of that passage.
     
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