1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10, for the 'saved', 'unsaved', or both (all)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alofa Atu, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Matthew 12:31-32, for the 'saved', 'unsaved', or both (all)

    Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

    Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

    Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    8,548
    Likes Received:
    775
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From my notes on the Gospel of Matthew:

    Cycles of Unbelief

    I. Sayings Collection 1
    a. Unbelief: John the Baptist (11:2-19)
    b. Unbelief: The towns of Galilee (11:20-24)
    c. Belief: “Come unto me” (11:25-30)​

    II. Saying Collection 2
    a. Unbelief: Sabbath controversy (12:1-8)
    b. Unbelief: Sabbath controversy (12:9-14)
    c. Belief: “The hope of the Gentiles” (12:15-21)​

    III. Sayings Collection 3
    a. Unbelief: The unforgivable sin (12:22-37)
    b. Unbelief: An evil generation (12:38-54)
    c. Belief: Jesus’ true family (12:46-50)

    Contention concerning the power of Jesus
    1. The occasion: (12:22-23) The crowds saw casting out of the demon as a sign of the divine authority of the coming Messiah

    2. The Pharisees accusation: Jesus casts out demons by the power of Beelzebul (12:24)

    3. Jesus’ responds with questions:
    Question 1 - Would Satan work against himself?
    A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (vs 25-26)
    The sign of driving out demons is a clear sign of Jesus’ Messianic authority – which the crowd had earlier recognized (vs. 23)​
    Question 2 - Who are your exorcists empowered by? (vs 27)
    Question 3 - Jesus affirms the real power behind the miracles (vs 28-30) and explains its consequences
    “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.” (vs. 28)​
    Question 4 - “How can someone enter a strong man's house and steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.” (vs 29)​

    Definition:
    Blasphemy: Profane or contemptuous speech or writing about (or action toward) God. In a general sense, “blasphemy” can refer to any slander, including any word or action that insults or devalues another being.

    Unpardonable sin: Regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because if a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon.​
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I was not asking what "some" thought. What do you say?

    Are the verses for the 'saved', 'unsaved' or both (all)?

    Are you saying that the verses are for the 'unsaved' and not for the 'saved', since you stated "... if a sinner remains in unbelief ..."?
     
  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    8,548
    Likes Received:
    775
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew’s Gospel was directed toward the Jewish community, among which there were believers, followers, and deniers.

    So IMO the passage is directed towards those that have not (yet) believed, with the hope that they would become part of the family by choosing to do the will of the Father (12:50).

    Rob
     
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    3,543
    Likes Received:
    809
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible is intended to be read and understood by those that are saved, not those that are not.
     
  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,998
    Likes Received:
    2,266
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You got a chapter and verse that supports this?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    3,543
    Likes Received:
    809
    Faith:
    Baptist

    " For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." ( Romans 15:14 ).

    Written to believers, not unbelievers.

    Do you have Scriptures that show that it is written to all of mankind, and that the "natural man", that cannot receive the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ), can receive the things of God?
    Can you provide Scriptures that clearly show that the preaching of the cross is anything other than foolishness to them that are perishing ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )?

    How about John 8:47?

    " He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."
     
    #7 Dave G, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,998
    Likes Received:
    2,266
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wonder how many people are in a multitude?
    1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
    2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
    3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    For they shall be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek,
    For they shall inherit the earth.
    Matthew 5:1-5 on onward...

    Mark 6:33 But the multitudes saw them departing, and many knew Him and ran there on foot from all the cities. They arrived before them and came together to Him.
    34 And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.

    “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16

    But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 19:14
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    8,548
    Likes Received:
    775
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dave, think of the implications of what you’re saying.
    Does that means you’d never share Scripture while witnessing to the unsaved.
    You would never encourage the unsaved to read the Gospel of John, or never follow the Romans Road while witnessing?

    The Gospels are God’s witness to the world that his Son is the Savior of the world. Wouldn’t you share that news with the unsaved.

    Rob
     
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    3,543
    Likes Received:
    809
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He was teaching His disciples.
    They were among the multitude.

    Every verse that speaks about a person being blessed, describes a saved person...
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit," etc.

    "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature..."
    Here's the rest of the passage:

    " And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ( Mark 16:16 ).

    He's stating a fact...those that believe shall be saved, those that do not shall be damned.
    For of such is the kingdom of Heaven.

    He is comparing the little children to God's children.
    The poor in spirit, the meek, those that hunger and thirst after righteousness.:)
     
  11. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sure he's talking about the state of those blessed of God! But you have no justification whatsoever in inferring it wasn't an exhortation to each member of the crowd that if they considered and acted wisely each one of them in totality couldn't be so blessed.

    Good grief! There's absolutely nothing in those passages which infers that every creature couldn't choose to act on the word of God and be saved? You're missing it by not appreciating that as far as God is concerned that through the life and ministry of Jesus he demonstrated enough whereby each one had been given enough evidence to lead them to act on the word in faith. Believing is a verb which means acting on information that you have no excuse not to. Because they act not or believe not is not indication God didn't want them saved.


    He's giving the exhortation that it'd be wise for ALL in the crowd to be that way. Sorry Dave but the way you're viewing things has Jesus going out among the multitudes almost giving a tease leaving the impression all could make the necessary changes and be blessed of God but really has no intention that many do so. I'd suggest you need to comprehend what the word disingenuous means. It means leading somebody on being insincere or underhanded. You're saying under the surface Jesus isn't meaning the exhortation is meant for each member of the crowd, that he was giving to them really what amounts to useless information wasting their time. Strange that sounds reasonable to you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,998
    Likes Received:
    2,266
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #3
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    3,543
    Likes Received:
    809
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ITL, your falling back on your numbered objections in no way diminishes the context of the passages you listed. ;)
     
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    3,543
    Likes Received:
    809
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sure I would, Rob.

    But I would never tell someone that God loves them "and has a wonderful plan for their life", and I would never preach the "gospel" as most today preach it...as an "offer".
    I would simply speak the word of God, and see who responds.
    God does the saving, not men.
    The belief of His words does not rest on the persuasiveness of a person's speech, but upon whether or not a person has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ).


    I also take great comfort in knowing that His word will accomplish that which He has purposed whenever and wherever it goes forth.
    God's purposes according to election will stand.:)
     
Loading...