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Featured Matthew 16:21-23 and Satan's Role in the Crucifixion of Jesus

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Scripture More Accurately, Nov 9, 2023.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I did not claim those passages to mean anything.

    Satan entered Judas who handed Jesus over to the Jews who nailed him to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    What does it mean that Satan entered Judas? I did not say. What does it mean that the Jews nailed Him to a cross and put Him to death? I believe the meaning is straight forward, but I did not insist.

    I simply asked you if you believed it.

    I never said you needed to prove you believed all of God's Word. I said that I believe you do not as evidenced by your unwillingness to confirm a few passages.

    I never said that I will not act on this thread as a moderator. I said that I was not posting as a moderator. Those are two very different things.
     
  2. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

    Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    Comparing Scripture with Scripture shows that all three writers of the Synoptic Gospels have accounts where Jesus used these same words. Such intentional repetition in Scripture communicates divine emphasis on what was spoken.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that is not emphasis. Those are three accounts of the same narrative.

    Biblical emphasis is repetition within the same passage or even book.

    For example, Jesus emphasizes Satan role in the Jews seeking to kill Him by repeating this charge several times in the passage.

    Peter emphasizes the Jews murdering Jesus by stating it twice, different ways, in one verse.

    Satan entering Judas and handing Jesus over to the Jews is emphasized by stating the event and Judas' character.


    BUT Jesus words to Peter is not unimportant. ALL of Scripture is important.

    Jesus explains His words to Peter. Peter had the same desire as Jesus (that the cup pass) but Peter had his mind set on the interest of man rather than God.

    This does not negate that Jesus said "Get behind me Satan".

    That statement, however, does not negate that Satan entered Judas to hand Jesus over to the Jews who nailed Him to the Cross and put Him to death.

    Those verses go together. It speaks to the nature of Satan.


    Do you believe that Satan entered Judas to hand Jesus over to the Jews who nailed Him to the Cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death?
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We also have to deal honestly with Peter's words, especially if we are saying it is what Satan wanted.

    Peter did not simply say Jesus shouldn't die. There was more to this.

    Matthew 16:21–22 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”

    Going with @Scripture More Accurately , what exactly did Satan disapprove of in the passage:

    1. That Jesus go to Jerusalem
    2. That Jesus suffer at the hands of the Jewish authorities
    3. That Jesus be killed
    4. That Jesus be raised up on the third day

    The OP picks out one of those things but ignores the main focus, that Jesus would be raised up on the third day.

    Satan knows Scripture. Satan (and the demons) actually believe. The demons asked Jesus what He had to do with them as their time had not come. Satan knows that his time is short. What does the Bible say about Satan? That he is pouring out his fierce wrath because he knows his time is short.

    The OP is not dealing with Satan in a biblical manner.
     
  5. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Now we will see if you are posting as a moderator or not.

    You have made a serious factual error. They are not 3 accounts of the same narrative. The first two are accounts of Jesus' rebuking Peter by calling him Satan. The third one is from when Jesus rebuked Satan himself in one of the temptation accounts in the Gospels.

    [Snip]
     
    #85 Scripture More Accurately, Nov 13, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2023
  6. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    False, you have misrepresented my OP. I was very careful to mention the resurrection multiple times in my OP.

    "Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
    This passage records that Jesus began to show His disciples that He had to go to Jerusalem, suffer many things from various Jewish leaders, be killed, and be raised again the third day.​

    Peter responded to Jesus' teaching by rebuking Him and saying, "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee." Saying this, Peter expressed strongly his desire that Jesus not suffer at the hands of the Jewish authorities and be killed and be raised again the third day, as He had just said was going to happen to Him.

    Shockingly, Jesus responded to Peter's statement by addressing Peter as Satan! Saying this, Jesus undeniably communicated that what Peter said was not of God, but rather was what Satan wanted. Peter's statements thus were an expression of the desires of both men and Satan that Jesus would not suffer at the hands of the Jewish authorities and be killed and be raised again the third day.

    Again, undeniably in this passage, Jesus taught that Peter's not wanting Jesus to suffer at the hands of the Jewish authorities and be killed and be raised again on the third day was of Satan and men and not of God.

    Jesus' teaching in Matthew 16:21-23 shows that Satan influenced Peter (in some unstated manner about which we are not told) so that Peter did not want Jesus to "go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day."

    A biblical understanding about what Scripture reveals about Satan's role in the crucifixion of Jesus must account for what Jesus explicitly said on this occasion that directly pertains to that subject."​
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Perhaps. I am not concerned. The fact remains that the gospel accounts are not repetitive fir emphasis but different accounts of the same Gospel.

    I don't care if you take screen shots. That will not prevent me from moderating the thread. I still don't post as a moderator. I post as a member.

    As a moderator I have repeatedly warned that playing the "you are a moderator" card will result in warnings or banning. I stand by that statement. Stop being childish.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, that is what I said. Satan knew that Christ dying and being raised on the third day would be his defeat.

    And it was a stumbling block to Christ as well.

    I never rejected that passage.

    What I said was that Satan entered Judas and handed Him over to the Jews who nailed Him to the Cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.


    You seem to see some contradiction in those passages. What exactly is it that makes you reject, or at least not be able to confirm, those passages?
     
  9. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    No, this is what you wrongly said about my OP:

    "The OP picks out one of those things but ignores the main focus, that Jesus would be raised up on the third day."​

    I did not ignore the main focus in my OP. I explicitly cited multiple times in my OP that Jesus spoke of His being raised again on the third day.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So the focus of your argument is that Satan did not want Jesus to be raised up on the third day (that the serpent would strike the heel but Satan didn't want the Son to crush its head).

    I agree.

    So what? It was never about what the Devil wanted.

    I agree with you about Peter's words.

    BUT do you believe that Satan entered Judas and handed Him over to the Jews who nailed Him to the Cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death??

    All I am trying to do is establish we agree on Scripture so we can see what is said in regards to the OP.
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    And when Jesus spoke these same words, who was Jesus speaking to?

    Wow, I didn't know you knew that!

    Even though, we just saw those verses you quoted!

    What did Jesus explicitly say? To who, again?

    Hey! Maybe, because Jesus said the same words, He was automatically talking to Peter and Satan all three times!

    Did you ever say what did Jesus explicitly say to anybody that pertains to that subject, of His Crucifixion?

    Even after adding another scripture?

    Oh well. JonC got you to quote Luke 4:8, outside the Matthew 16:23 box you've been in.

    Never mind.
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    And you 'know' this how? Have you conducted a poll among 2 billion Christians to ascertain their views? Until you have, you should not speak for them, and especially not for me.
    It is perfectly plain that neither the 'Jews' nor the 'Jewish authorities' literally 'nailed Jesus to a cross;' all four Gospel accounts tell us that it was the Roman soldiers who did that, as the ESV, which I thought was your translation of choice, makes more clear in Acts 2:23. But the main point of Acts 2:23-24 is that there is no mention whatsoever of Satan. It was done 'by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.'
    Is it your contention that the men described in John 8:30ff and no one else, physically nailed our Lord to the cross?
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The thing is that they are still being ignored. @JonC wants to make the thread about Satan's possession of Judas instead of about the O.P. I hesitate to advise a moderator on how to run the board, but if he wants to discuss John 13:27, he should start another thread instead of casting aspersions on other members of the Board. John 13:27 is neither more or less true than Mark 8:33 etc.
    The question for the Bible student is how to reconcile the two verses. Maybe that would be a good subject for a new thread.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know this because the majority of orthodox Christianity holds the position that the Cross was the culmination of the power of darkness, of this world, of Satan, descending on Christ with the Resurrection Christ's victory over Satan, sin and death.

    I know this because I took the time to read the demographics of our faith before posting.

    The focus of Peter's sermon was NOT that the killing of Jesus was God's predetermined plan but that those men could be forgiven. It was an evangelistic message.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I don't want the discussion to be about Satan entering Judas to hand Jesus over to the Jews who would nail Him to a cross and put Him to death.

    I want the discussion to include all passages possible about Satan's role in the crucifixion because that is important to the discussion about Satan's role in the crucifixion. We need to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Would you care to quote?
    What is your point here? That Peter's sermon was evangelistic is hardly rocket science. But did Peter state or did he not, that the crucifixion of our Lord was 'by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God'?
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But we ALL agree that the Jews nailing Jesus to a cross and putting Him to death was the predetermined plan of God.

    Jesus said that this would occur by the people He said were a "synagogue of Satan" and children of their father the Devil".

    ALL Scripture is important. Jesus did not suffer and die once under the Jewish authorities (in the OP passage Jesus said "scribes and pharisees") and another time by the predetermined plan of God.

    He died ONCE for all. Satan entering Judas and handing Him over to the Jews who nailed Him to a cross and put Him to death, Jesus going to Jerusalem to suffer at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day was always God's predetermined plan.

    One does not negate the other.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Now don't be lazy :p .

    Protestant Christianity makes up 36.7% of orthodox Christianity. Outside of the Protestant church the idea that Christ did not suffer and die under the powers of evil does not exist.

    Of the Protestant denominations about 67% hold that Jesus suffered and died unjustly under the power of evil or Satan.

    That leaves 12.2% of Christians. Out of these about 2% hold that Christ died under the power of Satan.

    Given the circles some run in and threads on this board it is an interesting fact that Reformed Baptists make up less than .3% of Christians. And they have declined sharply since 2018. The most dominant Baptist churches are charismatic (I didn't realize that until looking up stats.....they make up 58% across several evangelistic Baptist denominations).
     
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