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Matthew 3:13-15

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by robycop3, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Jul 31, 2000
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    I posted this in another forum, whicch was MY goof. I'm now rectifying it by posting it in a thread of its own.

    Matthew 3:13, KJV...Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
    15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

    Now, is it plain who suffered WHOM? Yet we hear no argument about who was HE & who was HIM. This is less plain in the KJV than 1 Tim. 3:16 is. Modern versions have "Him" capitalized.

    This is one of my main probs with the KJV. While the English nor the message is incorrect, it's simply unclear to many readers who the antecedent is in the several passages worded similarly.
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    Mat 3:15 KJV1769 with Strong's Numbers:
    And1161 Jesus2424 answering611 said2036 unto4314 him,846
    Suffer863 it to be so now:737 for1063 thus3779
    it(2076) becometh4241 us2254 to fulfill4137
    all3956 righteousness.1343
    Then5119 he suffered863 him.84

    If i read right, 'he' has been added to the English
    translation (for clarification /get it -- CLARIFICATION? :1_grouphug:/ )

    and is present in the Greek only in the
    paramaters of the word translated 'suffered'.
  3. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams New Member

    Jun 14, 2007
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    It could be taken either way, and be correct either way.

    Jesus suffered him (John) to baptize him.

    John suffered him (Jesus) to be baptized of him.

    What is incorrect about both?
  4. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

    Aug 2, 2006
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    I have to say, I'm not crazy about the 'its both' solution. The author's intent was most likely to communicate a specific meaning, but unfortunately it comes to us in an unprecise way. It feels (and I admit this is just an opinion) like the scripture is being contorted to say something it didn't mean originally.

    Frank and Bro. Williams traveled to his place of employment and he got paid"​
    "His" and "him" are ambiguous. But if it was your paycheck, Bro. Williams, you're probably not gonna want to share it with me (it certainly doesn't belong to us both, "he" being singular), just as I would not be inclined to giving you half of my income. It is very doubtful that the author of the statement (the way its written) meant that we traveled to both of our places of employment and both got paid.

    It is even possible that we went to my place of employment and you got paid (for some unrelated and undisclosed reason), or vice-versa. Sometimes language is just ambiguous. Context is often the key, but even context is not always conclusive.
    #4 franklinmonroe, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Oct 20, 2002
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    I'll be glad to collect, er, I mean hold onto both your paychecks until you can get this sorted out.
  6. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Mar 13, 2003
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    Jesus told John to suffer it and he obeyed and suffered him. That's pretty easy. Maybe there's a better example where the context isn't so plain.