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Featured Matthew 5:17 - 18 - a closer look

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law and the Prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled". (Matthew 5:17-18)

    Notice the two "untils". Until both "untils" are fulfilled we are still under the Law. But we are not under the law.
    That means .... ________?
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    First there is the question of ‘what is the law’? A subject I am not comfortable speaking with authority. Some things I know for sure, like worshiping something other than God as god will never be right. First of Ten Commandments, part of the whole Law of Moses, or the ‘Greatest Commandment’ of Jesus ... this LAW is an immutable part of God’s nature. The need to put people to death for wearing cotton-polyester blends seems potentially less of an eternal command.

    Moving beyond ‘what is the Law’, let’s briefly touch on what it would mean for part of the law to ‘pass away’. Something GOD declared a requirement, is no longer required by God to meet his standard of holiness. Has God lowered his standards? Did God demand something that was never really necessary? Both are silly positions to even suggest. Thus the LAW is God’s recorded standard for living a perfect life as a people set apart in a true theocracy cannot change until God creates a new (sinless) Heaven and Earth with a glorified people who no longer need any Law in order to do what the God requires. Where God supplies the robes, there is no need for a Law about two fabrics. Where God dwells among His people there is no need for a Law about worshiping other gods.

    Yet scripture tells us that we are not under the law. This is true, and this is false. Our relationship with the law is different than that of the Theocracy of Israel instituted by God under Moses and Joshua. There is no salvation to be found for us un the LAW. However much we keep, we cannot keep it all and it will not remove the stain of our sins (those points where we fall short of the Law). This is not a serious problem since the purpose of the Law is to teach us about God’s righteousness and our sinfulness. The Law shows us that we cannot keep it ... which drives us into the arms of GRACE.

    There will come a day when we will be perfected and with God. Then there will be no need for any law to teach us what we will already possess in full. Until then, God’s standard of moral perfection can and does not change. On that day, the Law will no longer be needed.
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would direct attention to the complete statement in the beginning, where He references "the Law and the Prophets," which remains the intent of His statement. He shortens that in the second statement, but it remains that in view is the Scripture, not the Covenant, not the regulations of the Covenant.

    And it will not be until all prophecy of Christ is fulfilled that this current universe passes out of existence:


    Revelation 20:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



    Cross reference...


    Luke 24:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

    27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.



    And that "Moses" is used as a synonym for the Law is seen in...


    Luke 24:44-46
    King James Version (KJV)

    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:



    God bless.
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Now, a quick question for you:


    Matthew 5:17-19
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



    What commandments are in view here?


    God bless.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And one more question for the evening, lol, sorry:


    Matthew 5:17-19
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



    What Kingdom is in view here?


    God bless.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Marriage is still a thing. Nothing has passed from the law.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The law still has a purpose in this age:

    Romans 3
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    It has not passed. The first 5 books of the Bible is the evidence.
     
  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the Law is fulfilled. The purpose was to sustain the nation of Isreal util the Messiah would come.

    Jesus is better , Grace is better than the Law

    Jhn 19:30
    When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    Heb 7:19
    For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


    Heb 7:22
    By so much was Jesus made a surety of a bettertestament.

    Heb 8:6
    But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises
     
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  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I like your question that you began with. I wish you would have stayed there longer, because the answer is not as hard as you think. In the passage I quoted we can know what Christ meant by the Law.

    He meant all of it. To be exact: "Every jot and tittle".

    While I agree with much of what you wrote afterward it is actually beside the point I was making - and the thrust of Matthew 5:17 - 18.
     
  10. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    My answer to you, first of all, would be the same as what I answered above. Your other comments are beside the point I was making.
     
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Easy. Any of the commandments. But keep in mind to whom He was speaking. First-century Jews. Heaven and earth (and here this requires OT references) has already passed away. This terminology refers to the Jewish dispensation.
     
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  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    How so, Hank? Just because Paul uses present tense in his epistle to the 1st century Romans does no mean that it is present tense for us. The Law that Paul describes was what those Jews were under.

    If the first five books are evidence that the Law has not passed away then, say, Isaiah 7:14 proves that the Virgin Birth is still a thing of the future.

    Much of the Bible is time-specific. There comes a time - came a time when what is written about becomes an event of history, not something we are currently under or look forward to.
     
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I agree. The Law tells us where we have failed but cannot save us. The Law directs us to Christ for Salvation. Then Christ directs us back to the Law for Regulation. :)
     
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Indeed, the Law has death, a curse and being nailed to a tree.

    Grace has: Eternal life, blessing, fruit bearing, freedom

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    I will cede to Asterisk that if we wonder from the leading of the Spirit we put ourselves under the law for "child-training".
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Every time we see the phrase 'the law and the prophets' in the N.T. it refers to the O.T.

    The question is, "Which law?"
    The sacrificial laws passed away when our Lord offered the one perfect all-sufficient sacrifice for sin upon the cross. The dietary laws we abrogated by the Lord Jesus (Mark 7:18-19), by God (Acts 10:13-15) and by Paul (Romans 14:14). The judicial laws suffered the same fate (John 8:1-11; Romans 13:1-7). So which law is the Lord Jesus referring to? Clearly the moral law represented by the Decalogue and epitomized by the Golden Rule. The Lord Jesus during His ministry showed how that law was to be interpreted correctly.

    We are not under the law as a covenant of works, but it is to be the Christian's rule of life-- ''not being without law towards God, but under law towards Christ'-- until heaven and earth pass away (Revelation 21:1) when all things are fulfilled at Christ's return..
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Zactly.

    This is what became the Jew's 'heaven and earth':

    18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
    19 And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26

    23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28

    We are new creatures of the new heaven and the new earth of the new covenant. :)
     
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Jesus fulfilled the Commandments.

    • He loved God with all his mind, body, soul, and strength not only in life, but in death as well.
    • He loved God with his body, offering it up in sinless perfection on the cross, the worst death any could die.
    • He always loved God but confirmed when he committed his soul to him in Gethsemane saying "thy will be done, not mine".
    • And he loved even his enemies. He died in their place as they blindly wrenched the last drop of blood from him. While asking God to forgive them for killing him.
     
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  18. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    but if I was Swahili and just heard of Jesus, and was saved, now you expect me to learn the Law?
     
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  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Conscience and the Holy Spirit of reproval.

    Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
     
  20. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I do not need to learn a Jewish Law then
     
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