Mdivs

[StefanM]

Well I asked for a list and got a link...oh well...

Anyhoo, I looked over the list and found only two people with degrees from Bob Jones. One of them has two PhDs from other institutions (one being Hebrew University) which would make up for it, the other seems to be old enough to not have the acredittation issue at play.

I did a search in the full catalog, finding those two faculty members. The second actually possesses a PhD from Columbia University as well.

Therefore, no one is "depending" on the BJU degree for legitimacy. They have accredited doctorates also.

 

[StefanM]

Stefan,
I have not read the essay you refer to. However, not all D.Mins are just "survey the SS class" projects. At one time, D.Mins at Southern spent MORE time in the classroom than Ph.D folks. Many D.Min programs I looked at included theological courses. And Ph.D. programs and D.Mins do not involve Biblical languages, but both at SBTS and some others require them for entry. No question, if I could do one or the other, I'd probably do the Ph.D, or at least do a Th.M. before Ph.D. But then again, my B.A. is in theology, so I'm a different animal. That said, I know men who have done both a Ph.D. and a D.Min, and they felt that that to a man, the D.Min was far more useful in their daily ministries (some were professors) than the Ph.D. And these are not the "leave the theology alone and let me work for the Lord" types. I can name two well known Ph.Ds who were highly touted profs at SBTS that not only recommended that their students do D.Mins as opposed to Ph.Ds, but they even recommended a very oft mentioned UA school for its rigor and usefulness.

Many D.Min projects/dissertations do require original research and application to a ministry setting. A friend who did a Ph.D. in homiletics said he basically did a research into sermon delivery styles and their effects on youth. He stole the idea from a D.Min guy D.Mins are not anti-research degrees.

I think a good UA degree could very well prepare one for church and mission work. Not all UAs are bad. Not all RA/NA degrees are good. It's the person and what he learns and practices/teaches.

I hope to do a D.Min someday, and I plan on it being CES or Whitefield. Neither are welterweight programs.

I'm not saying the DMin is bad degree or that the PhD is "better." The DMin's focus, however, is not on producing scholars. It is focused on further ministry training and church leadership.

That being said, given the significant difference between the PhD and the DMin, I wish that the DMin were not a "doctorate." I think the title "doctor" and the resultant sense of professionalism has caused harm to the church. That's where Wells' essay comes in. I highly recommend it, even if you disagree with me.

For a DMin, an UA degree might be worthwhile. You aren't going to use it as the basis for further education, and it doesn't train you for academia, so teaching isn't a factor.

My true wish is that we would go back to the old nomenclature of the BD. The DMin could then be changed to the MMin or Master of Practical Theology. The ThM would remain, and the PhD would be the doctorate.

 

[TomVols]

Uh, thats not what the catalog description says...



In order to enroll in this 5 year doctoral program (for a D. Min!!), one must possess a Master of Divinity...

I don't see this in the academic bulletin or tuition schedule at all. The Th.D. is listed as their highest professional theological degree. When I matriculated back in '04, there was no D.Min.

http://whitefield.edu/catalog.php

 

[TomVols]

I'm not saying the DMin is bad degree or that the PhD is "better." The DMin's focus, however, is not on producing scholars. It is focused on further ministry training and church leadership.

That being said, given the significant difference between the PhD and the DMin, I wish that the DMin were not a "doctorate." I think the title "doctor" and the resultant sense of professionalism has caused harm to the church. That's where Wells' essay comes in. I highly recommend it, even if you disagree with me.

For a DMin, an UA degree might be worthwhile. You aren't going to use it as the basis for further education, and it doesn't train you for academia, so teaching isn't a factor.

My true wish is that we would go back to the old nomenclature of the BD. The DMin could then be changed to the MMin or Master of Practical Theology. The ThM would remain, and the PhD would be the doctorate.

I like Wells so I look forward to reading it.

I do not think having doctoral training in practical ministry is bad so long as it is not void of theological underpinnings. Some of my best profs were D.Mins. I do not share your view that D.Mins are glorified master's degrees without theological moorings. I also don't blame all that's wrong with professionalism in ministry on the D.Min. program. I wish more Ph.Ds were pastors. The over scholasticism of some Ph.Ds have precluded this, leading to some intellectual snobbery and a looking down the nose at the church.

I believe scholars should be pastors and pastors should be scholars, and D.Mins and Ph.Ds can be both.

 

[preachinjesus]

What do you mean by "mail it in" degrees? Are you referring to distance education? So you you are also attacking schools such as Reformed Theological Seminary, and their online M.A.R.S. program? Or Liberty? Both of which are accredited?

Well first of all no one is "attacking" anyone. Why is it when evangelicals disagree over something we immediately castigate and separate the people? Anyhoo...

By "mail it in" I mean places like Patriot University and their ilk that don't offer actual classroom or significant interaction with peers. I'm in favor of thoroughly academic degrees that are done through external studies. Don't read into stuff so much man.

Again, my reply to your above point is valid...you're attempting to make your case using a small sample of a much larger group that doesn't reflect the point.

If we are called to ministry we are called to excellence, I don't see schools that buck RA as necessarily being excellent.

 

[TCGreek]

If we are called to ministry we are called to excellence, I don't see schools that buck RA as necessarily being excellent.

1. For you to make such a statement, you must have gone to every UA schools and sat in their classes.

2. Do you have BJU in mind or Whitefield?

3. I rather a solid UA seminary like Whitefield than an RA school that compromises on the Bible.

Your snobbery is sickening.

 

[preachinjesus]

Your snobbery is sickening.

okay, I'm sorry you have read me like that.

grace and peace to you on your journey

 

[Havensdad]

I don't see this in the academic bulletin or tuition schedule at all. The Th.D. is listed as their highest professional theological degree. When I matriculated back in '04, there was no D.Min.

http://whitefield.edu/catalog.php

Page 19, upper right hand corner of the 2006-2007 catalog. Has the info on the D. Min. I copied and pasted my last post, straight from the catalog. Apparently, they gave the D. Min program the proverbial "axe", LOL>

 

[Havensdad]

okay, I'm sorry you have read me like that.

grace and peace to you on your journey

Bro,

How else COULD he read you? You basically came out and said anyone who hasn't spent tens of thousands of dollars on their doctorate, is some how "inferior", simply because the institution believes, much like the puritans, and the founding fathers that the government has no business in education (10th amendment, I believe). Organizations that seek accreditation through only "CHEA" approved agencies, once again subject the church to the states authorities. Only this time, we put on our own shackles, and hand them the key...

 

[paidagogos]

BJU Ph.D.

I did a search in the full catalog, finding those two faculty members. The second actually possesses a PhD from Columbia University as well.

Therefore, no one is "depending" on the BJU degree for legitimacy. They have accredited doctorates also.

Although you may be correct in the specific situations at SBTS, a number of Ph.D. holders from BJU (e.g. Robert Reymond) over the years have taught in accredited seminaries and graduate schools based on their BJU credentials. Wilbur Smith, as we well know, taught at three accredited seminaries without a degree. The question is not just accreditation altogether but there is a qualitative difference between BJU and most the the unaccredited schools under discussion. There are a few good unaccredited schools as well as many poor accredited schools.

I am a strong proponent of high quality education and rigorous standards for degrees but I don't think for one minute that accreditation is the only route to this ideal. No, not for a minute, do I see accreditation as a guarantee of quality. Likewise, a lack of accreditation does not necessarily mean poor quality, though it often does. From my personal perspective, I am more interested in the quality of person and what he or she can do rather than degrees and accreditation. I've known non-degreed pastors, who were students of the Word, that were ten times better preachers and pastors than others with a D.Min. or Ph.D.

However, do not misconstrue my statements to make me anti-education. It is just that education is not a end of itself but it is a means to an end. Sometimes, I think we forget this.

 

[StefanM]

I've known non-degreed pastors, who were students of the Word, that were ten times better preachers and pastors than others with a D.Min. or Ph.D.

AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN AGAIN! Allow me to emphasize this statement greatly! Though I have been accused of being an academic snob, I'm actually not.

To be perfectly honest, I think that the ideal form of training would be training through the local church so that the men called by God would not have to leave their home churches to receive training. No degrees necessary.

The problem I see with all the degree proliferation is that we have gotten away from the biblical requirements for ministry in the pastoral epistles, substituting academic requirements in their place. I cringe every time I see a church requiring their minister to have a doctorate. If a person is sufficiently grounded in God's truth and is equipped for ministry, it does not matter if he has a formal piece of paper to attest to that fact.

 

[Havensdad]

AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN AGAIN! Allow me to emphasize this statement greatly! Though I have been accused of being an academic snob, I'm actually not.

To be perfectly honest, I think that the ideal form of training would be training through the local church so that the men called by God would not have to leave their home churches to receive training. No degrees necessary.

The problem I see with all the degree proliferation is that we have gotten away from the biblical requirements for ministry in the pastoral epistles, substituting academic requirements in their place. I cringe every time I see a church requiring their minister to have a doctorate. If a person is sufficiently grounded in God's truth and is equipped for ministry, it does not matter if he has a formal piece of paper to attest to that fact.

If you DO NOT require a doctorate (or more usual, a M. Div.), and 50 people want to fill your pastor position, How are you supposed to "see" that they have actually put the work in, and the study? The ungrounded, uneducated pastors are the ones who often lead people astray into weird cults...

I think the system we have is a good one. I just think that accreditation bodies like ATS, TRACS, etc. are the answer, rather than accreditation by secular bodies.

 

[StefanM]

If you DO NOT require a doctorate (or more usual, a M. Div.), and 50 people want to fill your pastor position, How are you supposed to "see" that they have actually put the work in, and the study? The ungrounded, uneducated pastors are the ones who often lead people astray into weird cults...

I think the system we have is a good one. I just think that accreditation bodies like ATS, TRACS, etc. are the answer, rather than accreditation by secular bodies.

I think the whole process we use is unbiblical. I think church leadership should come from within. We've gotten into this boat because we've treated ministers like footbal coaches.

Plus, the degree doesn't equate to an education. A very strong BA could actually be more rigorous than an MDiv from some schools. If you won't consider the man with the BA, you're unnecessarily limiting your options.

 

[Havensdad]

I think the whole process we use is unbiblical. I think church leadership should come from within. We've gotten into this boat because we've treated ministers like footbal coaches.

Plus, the degree doesn't equate to an education. A very strong BA could actually be more rigorous than an MDiv from some schools. If you won't consider the man with the BA, you're unnecessarily limiting your options.

A BA? Maybe. Nothing, though? I don' think that is usually a good idea...

There is nothing unbiblical about it. The early church model is not some kind of law. Pastors and preachers today, need a wide range of educational training, especially with all of the issues coming up in today's society.

Besides, the idea of "church" itself, as found in the NT, is not a local church building, but the entire body of Christ. That being said, one could certainly contend that church leadership IS INDEED coming from within the body of Christ (at least with cases such as SBTS, etc.)

 

[StefanM]

A BA? Maybe. Nothing, though? I don' think that is usually a good idea...

There is nothing unbiblical about it. The early church model is not some kind of law. Pastors and preachers today, need a wide range of educational training, especially with all of the issues coming up in today's society.

Besides, the idea of "church" itself, as found in the NT, is not a local church building, but the entire body of Christ. That being said, one could certainly contend that church leadership IS INDEED coming from within the body of Christ (at least with cases such as SBTS, etc.)

It's not the issue of "nothing." It's that the requirement doesn't have to be met by an official degree program. If you went through a substantive regiment of training, then I don't care if the program is a formal degree program.

The degrees don't matter. I sat in classes with students slacking off and sliding by with Cs. I assure you--they do not have the best preparation. While they have the degrees, they do not have adequate training.

While I do believe in the universal church, the NT emphasis on "church" is a local body of believers. Not the building, to be sure, but the congregation.

 

[Havensdad]

It's not the issue of "nothing." It's that the requirement doesn't have to be met by an official degree program. If you went through a substantive regiment of training, then I don't care if the program is a formal degree program.

The degrees don't matter. I sat in classes with students slacking off and sliding by with Cs. I assure you--they do not have the best preparation. While they have the degrees, they do not have adequate training.

I used to hear this same thing from some Martial Arts instructors, when I used to teach full time. "Why do they need belts? They just contribute to their ego..."

The problem is, this simply doesn't work. Without a standardized way of measuring and marking progress, confusion breaks out, many people get by with very little comparative training, etc.

While I do believe in the universal church, the NT emphasis on "church" is a local body of believers. Not the building, to be sure, but the congregation.

Not "a" local body of believers, and not THE emphasis. Some of the emphasis, is on the "body of Christ" in a particular geographic area, such as the "church at Corinth". There is no Biblical basis at all, of things such as "First baptist church of Houston" and "Second Baptist church of Houston" etc. They are the same church, simply meeting in two different buildings.

There was a reason the reformers stressed formal education. Luther talked about the pitiful, sorry excuse for education that the Churches were pumping out. The system we have developed, works about as good as one could...

 

[TCGreek]

I think the system we have is a good one. I just think that accreditation bodies like ATS, TRACS, etc. are the answer, rather than accreditation by secular bodies.

PreachinJesus thinks it has to be RA to be "excellent."

 

[TomVols]

Page 19, upper right hand corner of the 2006-2007 catalog. Has the info on the D. Min. I copied and pasted my last post, straight from the catalog. Apparently, they gave the D. Min program the proverbial "axe", LOL>

I don't see it in the 2008 catalog. Don't remember it in the 2003-04 catalog.

 

[Havensdad]

I don't see it in the 2008 catalog. Don't remember it in the 2003-04 catalog.

Grrrr.


What, am I lying? Look, this is the entire "professional degree" section, from their 2006-2007 catalog. I copy and pasted it...(Had to cut some out...)

Professional Degrees
Master of Divinity (M.Div.)
The Master of Divinity is a three-year study program designed
specifically to train men for the office of minister.
The degree requirements are based upon the rules for
examination for ordination as set forth by the Westminster
Assembly in 1645, as stated in The Form of Presbyterian
Church Government:
He shall be examined touching his skill in the original
tongues, and his trial to be made by reading
the Hebrew and Greek Testaments, and rendering
some portion of some into Latin [now English];…
and whether he hath skill in logic and philosophy.
What authors in divinity he hath read, and is best
acquainted with; and trial shall be made in his
knowledge of the grounds of religion, and of his
ability to defend the orthodox doctrine contained in
them against all unsound and erroneous opinions,
especially these of the present age; of his skill in the
sense and meaning of such places of scripture as
shall be proposed unto him, in cases of conscience,
and in the chronology of the scripture, and the
ecclesiastical history.
Acceptance into this degree program requires an acceptable
bachelor degree or a first theological degree from an
approved graduate school of theology.

Bachelor of Divinity (B.D.)
A student without an undergraduate (bachelor) degree
may complete the Master of Divinity (M.Div.) program of
study and be awarded a Bachelor of Divinity degree. If
the student later completes an undergraduate degree, the
Bachelor of Divinity degree may be upgraded to a Master
of Divinity degree, for a small fee upon application by
the student. Students who desire to take the Master of
Divinity degree program, but do not want to complete the
Greek and Hebrew requirements, may receive a Bachelor
of Divinity degree which will be designated as a major in
English Bible only.
Required Courses...
Master of Sacred Theology (S.T.M.)
The Master of Sacred Theology degree is an advanced
program of study in the areas of theology, church history
and apologetics. The degree requires the completion of the
Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree or its equivalent prior to
enrollment. This program consists of six courses of study
and a thesis in the student’s chosen field of emphasis.
Theology: Required Courses: Advanced Contemporary
Theology I / Advanced Contemporary Theology
II / Doctrine of the Trinity / Theology of Jonathan
Edwards / Theology of Martin Luther / Augustine
and Medieval Theology / Thesis
Church History: Required Courses: Historiography
/ The Early Church / Augustine and the Medieval
Church / Reformation Church History / History
of Christianity in America / History of the
Charismatic Movement / Thesis
Master of Philosophy (M.Phil.)
The Master of Philosophy degree is an advanced program
of study in the field of Western Philosophy and Christian
Thought. The degree requires the completion of the
Master of Divinity (M.Div.), or its equivalent prior to
enrollment. The program consists of six course of study
and a thesis.
History of Western Thought I / History of Western
Thought II / History of Christian Thought / History
of Apologetics / Contemporary Apologetics: Theory
and Method / Logic and Critical Thought / Thesis
Master of Missiology (M.Mis.)
The Student who has completed the Master of Divinity
degree or its equivalent may enroll in the Master of
Missiology degree in the field of Christian missions. This
program requires six additional courses of study and thesis
for the completion of the degree.
Required Courses: History of Missions / Missionary
Encounter with World Religions / Urban Mission
and Ministry / African Theology and Religions
/ Muslim Evangelism / Urban Missiology in
Postmodern Metropolis / Thesis
Master of Business Administration (M.B.A.)
The Student who has completed the Master of Divinity
degree or its equivalent may enroll in the Master of
Business Administration degree in the field of Christian
Leadership and Administration. This program requires six
additional courses of study and thesis for the completion
of the degree.
Required Courses: Church Administration
and Leadership / Advanced Leadership and
Administration / Effective Administrative
Leadership / Interpersonal Communications and
Conflict Management / Developing The Spirituality
of Church Leaders / Advanced Biblical Counseling
/ Thesis
Master of Theology in Pastoral Theology (Th.M.)
The Master of Theology is an alternative degree to the
Doctor of Theology. This degree program is awarded to
students that complete all the Th.D. degree courses but
would rather not write the dissertation. Thus, there is no
dissertation requirement for this degree program. Entrance
to this program requires a student to take all courses
leading to the Doctor of Theology degree.
Required Courses: Hermeneutics / Systematic
Theology I / Systematic Theology II / Systematic
Theology III / Systematic Theology IV / Biblical
Theology / Apologetics I / Apologetics II / Biblical
Ethics / Biblical View of Culture / Church History
I / Church History II / American Church History /
Presbyterian Church History / Historical Theology
/ New Testament Greek / Old Testament Hebrew /
Introduction and History of the Old Testament / Old
Testament Studies I / Old Testament Studies II / Old
Testament Studies III / Introduction and History
of the New Testament / New Testament Studies I /
New Testament Studies II / New Testament Studies
Catalog 2006-2007 19
III / Homiletics / Pastoral Theology / Pastoral
Counseling / Church Administration / The Church
and the Law / Biblical Worship / Cults and Heresies
/ Reformed Evangelism and Missiology / Pastoral
Practicum / Christian Education / History of
Preaching and Revivals / Advanced Biblical
Counseling / Marriage and Family Counseling /
History and Methods of Counseling / Missions and
World Religions / Thesis
Doctor of Theology in Pastoral Theology (Th.D.)
The Doctor of Theology is the highest professional degree
awarded by the Seminary. It is a four-year degree awarded
in Pastoral Theology that is built on the curriculum of
the Master of Divinity degree with an additional year of
study in applied theology. Students must be capable of
demonstrating ability to obtain excellence in all phases of
the program with strong academic competence.
The student must complete the required post-graduate
core courses, and then select one area of study in ministry,
which must be approved by the Doctoral Committee.
A dissertation is required to complete this degree program.
Admission to this program requires the Bachelor of Arts
degree or its equivalent. Students who enroll in the Th.D.
degree can be awarded the Master of Arts in Christian
Studies, Master of Arts in Religion, and the Master of
Divinity degrees upon completing the required courses
of study that lead to the Th.D. degree. Only students who
have taken all their seminary studies with WTS will be
admitted into the Th.D. program.
Required Courses: Hermeneutics / Systematic
Theology I / Systematic Theology II / Systematic
Theology III / Systematic Theology IV / Biblical
Theology / Apologetics I / Apologetics II / Biblical
Ethics / Biblical View of Culture / Church History
I / Church History II / American Church History /
Presbyterian Church History / Historical Theology
/ New Testament Greek / Old Testament Hebrew /
Introduction and History of the Old Testament / Old
Testament Studies I / Old Testament Studies II / Old
Testament Studies III / Introduction and History
of the New Testament / New Testament Studies I /
New Testament Studies II / New Testament Studies
III / Homiletics / Pastoral Theology / Pastoral
Counseling / Church Administration / The Church
and the Law / Biblical Worship / Cults and Heresies
/ Reformed Evangelism and Missiology / Pastoral
Practicum / Christian Education / History of
Preaching and Revivals / Advanced Biblical
Counseling / Marriage and Family Counseling /
History and Methods of Counseling / Missions and
World Religions / Doctoral Dissertation.
Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.)
The Doctor of Ministry degree is a five-year study program
offered in the field of Pastoral Theology. All courses of
study directly relate to preaching, worship and sacraments.
A student must possess a Master of Divinity degree or it’s
equivalent in order to enroll in this degree program of
study.
Required Courses: Christian Worship / History of
Reading and Preaching in Worship I / History of
Reading and Preaching in Worship II / Puritan
Worship and Practice / A Reformed View of Ministry
and Preaching / Revivalism and the Revivals in
History / Church Government / The Lord’s Supper
in Worship / Contemporary Evangelical Thoughts
on Leadership and Ministry / Dissertation

 

[StefanM]

Havensdad, I did see that as well.