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Mechanics of a Perfect Translation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, May 4, 2007.

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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I would still like an opinion from anyone who believes a perfect translation is possible. How does it happen?

    Consider that two of the three translations considered perfect by some in history were done by committees: the Septuagint (LXX) and the KJV. The Latin Vulgate was a revision of the old Latin versions by one man, Jerome.

    Now, in the case of the committees, they discussed in detail every step of the translation, every word. I was on a committee in the Kanto Plain years ago that got through just four chapters of John before quitting. (The good that came out of that is the current effort.) Personally, I would get impatient about some of the wrangling that went on.

    There was a previous effort, in which I was not involved, to translate from the TR into Japanese that actually put out a Gospel of Mark, and translated a rough draft of the whole NT. There was so much wrangling, though, that it was never finished. A lot of that was from one man who thought his translations were always perfect! :BangHead:

    I can only imagine the discussions that went on in the LXX and KJV committees. They all could not be right. Some had to give, some had to change, some had to rethink their work. Where does the perfection come in? Is it in the original rough draft? The discussion that revises that? The discussion later to do the final edition? The proofreading of that edition? The later revisions or corrections after the first printed edition?

    If there can be a perfect version it would be through a miracle. Why could not that miracle take place with only one person, rather than a committee? Why do I need Japanese correctors? It would sure be nice if I could just sit down and write out that translation perfectly through immediate inspiration, like the tongues speakers in Acts 2. But I have found that it takes very, very hard work. :type:
     
    #81 John of Japan, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2007
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I believe in perfect translation. "Perfect: Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind."

    The American Heritage®
    Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved., © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
     
    #82 TCassidy, May 13, 2007
  3. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Wouldn't 'perfection' be in the eye of the beholder, so to speak?

    And since man is maladjusted to begin with, being a sinner and all (saved or not), it would appear impossible for anyone or any group to produce a perfect translation.
     
    #83 Mexdeaf, May 13, 2007
  4. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    So on what basis does one determine the 'essentialness' or completeness of any given translation?
     
    #84 Mexdeaf, May 13, 2007
  5. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    Apologies to John of Japan and others for straying away from the topic of the OP.
    I wonder if New Tribes Mission, who, I understand, have been translating the scriptures into various languages for many years, might be able to help? You could e-mail them at:

    [email protected]
     
    #85 David Lamb, May 14, 2007
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'll buy that, Dr. Cassidy.
     
    #86 John of Japan, May 14, 2007
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Interesting thought, Mexdeaf. My concept at the OP was an inerrant translation in the same way the originals were inerrant.
    IMO, a perfect translation in the way I just described (as opposed to the "completeness" definition Dr. Cassidy just gave) would have to be miraculous for the very reason of man's sinfullness and failure.

    Now, again I wonder if someone who believes in such a perfect translation would give me the mechanics of how and when the perfection would occur.... :type:
     
    #87 John of Japan, May 14, 2007
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hi, David.

    The Wycliffe/SIL people have produced some books, but I'm not sure the New Tribes folk have ever produced anything other than internal documents. Still, it might be worth a check. Thanks!

    Another group doing translation work nowadays is Bibles International, a BMM (Baptist Mid-Missions) Bible Society. These folk are American scholars who encourage and help in translations around the globe based on the TR. I have their pamphlet, "Anchor Points for Scripture Translation Work," and it is very good. :type:
     
    #88 John of Japan, May 14, 2007
  9. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    That's where God steps in: to adjust men to the place of being holy men for He to inspire.

    II Peter 1:1
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Another Scripture to help determine if a translation is inspired:


    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    I have heard that some believe a translation could not be inspired. Those individuals are speaking independently of what Scriputre proclaims.

    The term "quick" means to be alive.

    Inspiration:1 a : a divine influence or action on a person believed to qualify him or her to receive and communicate sacred revelation b : the action or power of moving the intellect or emotions c : the act of influencing or suggesting opinions

    Since God is alive and His word is alive, suggesting a translation not being inspired is an attempt to put God to death along with His word. They are inseparable and ya can't "kill" God!!!:sleeping_2:
     
    #89 Salamander, May 15, 2007
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    So how do we know Sal if a translation is man's work or given by the inspiration of God.

    Are you saying that unless John is working under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost that he should quit his translation? Unless the Holy Spirit is breathing His word through John he is wasting his time?

    Trying to grasp your view of the mechanics of a perfect translation.
     
    #90 NaasPreacher (C4K), May 15, 2007
  11. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    A man knows when he is inspired by the Lord, that is why I asked him if he was inspired to do his work.

    How does a man know he is called of God to preach?

    How does anyone know they are saved?

    How does anyone know they are being dealt with about their sin so they know they must get saved?

    When we look at God's word as the mirror He intended it to be, one must consider the reflection to be nothing less than perfect.

    That is why harmony concerning the Scriptures is the mandate in any translation.

    A clue to the answer to your question: is a man trying to convince God of what he says he's inspired to do, or is God convincing him?
     
    #91 Salamander, May 15, 2007
  12. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    It may be the word "mechanics" of a perfect translation disagrees with the intent of the OP.

    A mechanic is an artisan:1 : a worker who practices a trade or handicraft : [SIZE=-1]CRAFTSPERSON[/SIZE]
    2 : one that produces something (as cheese or wine) in limited quantities often using traditional methods

    Since the Word of God is not something man produces, neither is it from the hands of men in its origination, "mechanics" of a perfect translation would then be impossible by men.

    If we look at the definiton of mechanism:1 a : a piece of machinery b : a process, technique, or system for achieving a result
    2 : mechanical operation or action : [SIZE=-1]WORKING [/SIZE]2
    3 : a doctrine that holds natural processes (as of life) to be mechanically determined and capable of complete explanation by the laws of physics and chemistry
    4 : the fundamental processes involved in or responsible for an action, reaction, or other natural phenomenon <mechanisms of organic evolution>

    I believe anyone could see the Lord is omitted in the process.
     
    #92 Salamander, May 15, 2007
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    If the mechanics of a perfect translation involve the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, why do translators use Hebrew and Greek texts? If the translation were indeed God-breathed why bother with that, just let the Holy Spirit breath His word in English, German, Japanese and any other language. Or does God only speak one language frozen in one period of history?
     
    #93 NaasPreacher (C4K), May 15, 2007
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  14. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I would have to say that God said it once and that was enough, but all men don't speak the original tongues and therefore the need for translation into a determinable translation without any error.

    When one looks at a dictionary for understanding what a word means, he finds the more specific a defintion is will determine the use of that word to be correct in the context so that he might understand what is meant.

    To omit a word deeming it to be archaic is not in all honesty to the hearer. I want to know where the word came from when I look it up. I want to know why the word means what it did then and what it means now. That is what determines the understanding of what God means.

    If a word is alternately changed in its meaning to accomodate the hearer, then what does the originator of the statement say about it?

    Men need to quit monkeying around with God's words and leave them as they were first understood. Don't we have full access to all the dictionaries to help us know what any word means? Yes.

    Man is always demanding God meet man's requirements, that is turning the cat the wrong way around when you're petting it.
     
    #94 Salamander, May 15, 2007
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Would you hold all translators, including those in 17th century England to this same standard of translational mechanics?
     
    #95 NaasPreacher (C4K), May 15, 2007
  16. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Hence the Japanese should use the first translation they had, no matter how flawed.

    And us English-speakers should revert back to the Geneva Bible.
     
    #96 rbell, May 15, 2007
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    I highly recommend an etymology dictionary. (One of high caliber, which is, unfortunately, quite expensive.) This is why. Some words have changed meaning since the KJV was translated, and because the KJV has so permeated the English language in general, we still use those words, but often with different meanings than they used then.

    Adoption and eternal are the first two to come to mind.

    Edited to add: For a perfect translation (or at least as close as we, as imperfect humans are capable of) would require many more words than the original. There are some words that would require an entire paragraph to be perfectly understood. We would probably end up with a Bible that is at least twice as long. (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.)
     
    #97 Hope of Glory, May 15, 2007
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hello, Salamander.

    Sorry I missed your recent posts on this thread. I got involved elsewhere.

    Let me answer clearly. I had thought that you see immediately from my early posts and my description of my errors that had to be corrected that I do not believe I am inspired. Indeed, no man is inspired by God. The Bible says clearly that "All Scripture is given by inspiration," not the writers.

    Furthermore, I have no evidence from Scripture or personal experience that my Japanese translation is inspired of God except by derivation as I translated truth. I was led by God to translate, I am filled with the Holy Spirit to translate, I am gifted by God in languages to help me translate, but there is no promise in the Word of God (the KJV if you will) that what I translate will be inerrant.

    Your Scriptures so far do not at all prove that I can have the miracle of an inerrant, inspired Japanese translation. To the contrary. Heb. 4:12 says the Word of God is living--present tense at the time it was written. It was inspired when it was already in existence in the first century. This does not say any translation will be inspired. And don't think that the 1st century Christians did not know what translation was. The typical Christian then spoke at least Greek and Latin, maybe Hebrew too. If God had wanted us to believe that a Japanese translation in 2007 could be inspired as the originals were He could have easily put that in the Bible.

    2 Peter 1:1 is past tense. It speaks of "holy men of old," not "holy men of the future" (whether in Japan or England or elsewhere. You do not help your position at all by trying to make "of old" mean "of the future."

    Finally, I find your statement as follows to be very strange: "Since God is alive and His word is alive, suggesting a translation not being inspired is an attempt to put God to death along with His word. They are inseparable and ya can't "kill" God!!!" You really need to rethink this statement. It is totally unblblical.

    Do you not know that God's Word is "forever settled in Heaven"? Someone on earth can take their KJV Bible and cut pages out of it, cross out words and add other words, draw pictures over the words and otherwise deface it, and it will not harm in the slightest God's eternal word preserved in Heaven, or the eternal God Himself.

    God bless.
     
    #98 John of Japan, May 18, 2007
  19. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Speaking of translating, errors, and the like, here is an interesting story http://www.biblesociety.org/wr_387/387_14.htm
     
    #99 franklinmonroe, May 18, 2007
  20. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    I am still waiting on an answer to this question.......
     
    #100 Mexdeaf, May 18, 2007
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