1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Megachurch files for bankruptcy

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Jedi Knight, Oct 18, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. go2church

    go2church Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I guess the folks in Acts 6 had it all wrong then. Good to know I'll make sure and mention that this Sunday. Congregational church rule is a model supported by scripture as is the elder led model, nether violates scripture.

    Employees are not members of the corporation in the March of Dimes case you gave.

    We seem to be talking apples and oranges here. I am speaking of a church that is unincorporated (surprisingly this is the case of many, Baptist churches) with a framework of congregational rule. In this case the church is legally governed by the code in the business section of the law. I am sure if organized in a different manner, I'm sure different laws would apply. This is one of the advantages of being incorporated, most states shield the membership from being held personally responsible for the debts.

    I'm not a lawyer, I think I'm right but if not, I'm sorry for being a source of bad information
     
  2. jaigner

    jaigner Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,274
    Likes Received:
    0
    The forms of church government in the Bible would seem to be ad hoc constructs created to serve a certain place at a certain time. I certainly have my preference, but I'm not going to be dogmatic about it.
     
  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    Our covenant is not really vague, but one does need to go to the Scriptures to grasp the implications of the wording. The By-laws that follow also dive more deeply into the precise application of the terms.

    But in any case, it was asked above where or when we will apply church discipline. Without citing actual cases, I will speak to the conditions where discipline has been applied.

    1. Failure to become part of an active community group (the teaching/discipleship/ministry/praying/fellowship arm of our church). This does not mean missing a week or two here and there, but rather willful disassociation with a group.

    2. Failure to attend church services on a regular basis (the worship/gathering/fellowship/prayer/ordinance arm of our church). Like CG participation, this does not mean missing here and there, but it does mean willful absence.

    3. Failure to live in Godly marriage. Though it is a given that Christian marriages will have problems, unwillingness to resolve those problems in light of the teachings of Scripture indicate a case for church discipline. That discipline will always start with a call to mentorship, then informal counseling, then formal counseling, and finally removal from membership if no reconciliation is forthcoming.

    4. Failure to support the church with time, talent, and treasure. Each member is expected to serve the church in some form of ministry, bring their gifts and talents to bear to make the church successful, and to support the ministry and operating budget of the church. This is not an "amount" category, but an action category. Lack of action is what prompts disciplinary actions.

    5. Heresy or renunciation of Christ.

    In all cases, the order of discipline in Matthew 18 is followed. Discipline starts in the Community Group by group leaders in individual and group discussions (we "speak the gospel" into one another's life) then will proceed to church elders and finally the entire congregation if the case requires that level of discipline.

    Discipline is not a foregone conclusion. We are not quick to discipline. Some willfull act must be observed and many, many steps taken before the word discipline is even intimated. Our preferred method is to lovingly draw sinful people into a sanctified life where the level of service and Christian walk match the biblical example. We understand that this means something different for each believer, each marriage, each CG, each service of worship, etc. God has not set aside His creativity and individuality of person for the sake of a rule of the church. It is failure to respond in a biblical manner that triggers further action.

    How often does discipline come to the entire congregation? Less than 10 times a year in a congregation of 2400+. Most of the issues above are handled very early on, and with much success!

    Praise God that we are growing a church of committed individuals, who in their free expression of their God-given talents and gifts are reaching out to an entire community and making the sort of difference that is noted, even among the most secular aspects of the community. As an example, our church was voted by Louisville's most liberal weekly tabloid as "the best church in Louisville" for 2010. This tabloid has an annual poll for the community at large to name the "best of Louisville" in all sort of categories, from best steak to best strip club. To be noticed by this venue as the best church is notable! (Runner up was the Unitarian Universalist and third place was the Buddhist temple.) To answer that rhetorical question often posed, "We WOULD be missed if God closed our doors."

    Here is a great video of real members who have seen changed lives:
    http://vimeo.com/10529836

    Here is an explanation of what we do:
    http://vimeo.com/10235053
     
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I never said to seek answers using ONLY common sense, did I? THIS MATTER is one of common sense. How dare you question my standing with God and salvation! You have NOT answered my question, just gave snide, veiled attacks on my salvation as to try to avoid answering it directly. If these attacks on my salvation continue (a sin, btw since they are against BB rules...not to mention offending me) they will be reported.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Acts 6 supports my view, not yours. You honestly believe 10,000 people gathered together to choose who would wait tables?!. Representatives from each tribe chose those who were to become Deacons / leaders. It takes great leaps in logic to think they took a "church vote" of that many people chose.
     
  6. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, here's what the bible says:

    "Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to teh ministry of the word. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose..."

    Who chose the deacons? They. Who were they? The whole multitude the apostles spoke to. Who was that? We don't know. Was it the entire congregation or only part? We don't know. We have no basis from the scripture to conclude that "representatives from each tribe chose those that were to become deacons." What you have done is read into the scriptures things that weren't there. You and I have no idea how many people chose or voted on who were to become deacons. All we know is that a multitude did it, which is the whole multitude who were instructed to do so by the apostles. Anything else, any other conclusion, whether it is that the entire congregation or a certain portion of the congregation chose the deacons, is based on nothing more than supposition. The bible called them a multitude and left it at that, and we should as well.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are right, it was not representatives from the 12 tribes...my mind was elsewhere while I was typing that. It also wasn't the "whole" multitude either, it was a number of people. We don't know how many that was, but God has blessed us with common sense to believe it was not a multitude of 5 figures choosing 7 people to wait tables. At any rate, it was the start of the church as we know it and further down the road Paul gives us the model for church leadership, and no sign of democracy anywhere in addressing the churches.
     
  8. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    The bible says it was the "whole multitude" and never tells us what that means. You say common sense says this or that, but the truth is the bible never gave you the information needed to make that distinction. For all you and I know it could have been the entire congregation. It could have been half, or third. It could have been a smaller portion that nominated the deacons and then the entire congregation approved. We don't know and should leave it at that and be satisfied.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    The Bible has not given us the information needed to run a church?!? Elders are called shepherds to the flock (1 Peter 5:2). How many flocks of sheep do you know that are democracy ran?

    Other responsibilities of the Elders (plurality) include that of directing the affairs of the church (I Tim. 5:17), determining church policy (Acts 15:22), preaching and teaching (I Tim. 5:17), praying for the sick (James 5:14), and given to prayer and the ministry of the Word (Acts 6:3). The Bible has given us PLENTY of information on how to implement and run His church!

    Fact is, there is only one questionable text that supports a congregational lead church, and you even admit as such. I say "common sense, this, common sense that" because if the common sense makes all the sense, we seek no other sense. God has told us to "reason together" and to study to show ourselves approved. 10k people picking 7 people to wait tables is absurd in any culture in any time, and trying to support such a notion is pure ignorance.
     
  10. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    I said the bible hasn't given us the information needed to know who exactly the multitude was who chose the deacons in Acts 6, whether it was the entire congregation or some part thereof. Reading comprehension.

    By the way, the elders are commanded to not be lords over God's heritage.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Reading comprehension :laugh:

    A leader is not a dictator....and God has given us a brain to reason with and in many cases circumstantial evidence to support such reason.
     
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So which model was Crystal Cathedral following, biblical congregationalism or Webdog's presbyterial scheme?
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's not my model...you can go back to Paul for the model...and I wouldn't be so quick to call God's Word a "scheme".
     
  14. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    What evidence have you in this case? I'm really interested to see how you can prove who the "multitude" was who the apostles told to select the deacons in Acts 6. Please, go right ahead. And please, spare us the "well we know it couldn't have been the entire congregation..." I want something in that scripture which leads us to know who the "multitude" was. I'll wait patiently.

    The bible gives us this much information: a group referred to as the "multitude" and "whole multitude" were told by the 12 to select the deacons, they were pleased by this and did as the apostles said. No other information is given. Any attempt to identify this multitude is the creation of men's imagination is not warranted by the bible. The bible doesn't tell you how many it was, whether it was the entire congregation or not. It surely does not tell us it was a special portion of congregation. If you choose to interpret it this way you are inventing things and placing them onto scripture which you have no right to. While it may be hard to imagine a huge congregation choosing deacons, we have no information in the text from which to conclude that it couldn't have taken place. The bible didn't tell us how they did it, just that they did it. Everything you are saying is fiction, the working of your imagination. You have no clue how they went about this action, and who it was that did it. You are assuming it happened the way you imagine with no evidence to back you up. God gave us a brain to reason, not to read into scripture things that aren't there.
     
  15. rbell

    rbell Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    11,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    IMO, this is dangerously close to questioning another's salvation. Bad form.

    Not asking you to agree--but this goes beyond what it should.

    Again, just MHO.
     
  16. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are correct, it is your opinion.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    ...and mine as well.
     
  18. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    I've seen your posts. There are many that certainly don't use spiritual discernment. So, by your own words, what does that make you?
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    The translations I have read do not say "whole multitude" anywhere. The greek translated can be anywhere from a number to a large number. It STILL does not prove church democracy one bit where everyone has an equal say / equal vote.

    The circumstantial evidence I'm talking about is the whole of the Bible, not that particular verse. I already supplied you the verses showing Elder leadership, how they are referred to as shepherds (knowing what shepherds do and what the sheep do in that relationship), etc. Taken as a whole I'm pretty confident in my understanding a church should be Elder governed with Deacons part of this model and the flock should submit to their leadership. Only in America do we see democracy as some biblical "right" when it pertains to the church ("I should have a vote in the matter")
     
  20. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    London Baptist Confession (1689)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...