More about eschatology and preterism...

1 Kings 6

7 In building the temple, only blocks dressed at the quarry were used and no hammer, chisel or any other iron tool was heard at the temple site while it was being built.

Im almost certain ( I am not Jewish, but tools on the temple mount are unclean items and will not be allowed In building a new temple). So I don't see many people walking huge stones one by one right after your "tribulation" starts. After they take down the Dome of Rock, Even the Temple Institute states the Dome has to come down first.

 

Lets all just think about this:

Tomorrow you wake up and some of the worlds population is missing, some churches are empty (if you believe in Pre-trib). Television News reports, the internet, reports of this everywhere and no one in this world still around wouldn't understand what happened? A quick google search about people disappearing.
People Disappearing -- The Rapture - Bible Prophecy - The Rapture
Then some man comes out of the wood works claiming to be Jesus and then 1.4 Billion Arabs and 6 million jews start holding hands?. And still no one questions any of this with google having 228,000 results about the rapture, And About 11,500,000 results about the antichrist doing this exact same thing, and at least two Secular movies that I know of off hand- This is the End And Left Behind (Nicholas cage) about the rapture. No world leader/authority power, anything, is going to say hey wait I've heard about this before? Then this man gets the Muslims to tear down the Dome of the Rock, so a third Jewish Temple can be built? All in a couple of years?

 

Most amils would see the temple of God in Rev. 11 as the church, the true worshippers being measured/numbered for divine protection - like the 144,000 being sealed.

While the temple of Jesus time had lost its primary function as the centre for worship, Jesus & the Apostles did treat it as a centre for preaching until they fled the city. True worshippers were there. But its days were numbered. It would be totally destroyed.

The tabernacle was patterned on a heavenly temple, & once the earthly structure was destroyed, John sees:

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenantwas seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.​

The problem with the teaching that Ezekiel's temple is yet future, & physical according to the given dimensions, is that it is a temple for sacrificial worship, sin offerings, etc. It is therefore absolutely contrary to the Gospel & NC teaching.

I believe the 2 witnesses are described in terms that identify Moses & Elijah - representing the Law & the Prophets that the Jewish leaders had defied. See Luke 16:

29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”​

If the Israelis build a temple it will NOT be "the temple of God" & there will be no true worshippers. And if it is to be destroyed within 7 years it will NOT be:

43:5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. ​

You will need a 4th temple! And yet more sacrifices.

So why Ezekiel's temple vision?

All the prophets except Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied before the Babylonian captivity & of that captivity, and of course the return from that captivity including the rebuilding of Jerusalem & the temple.

Messianic prophecies are included, including prophecies of the Gentiles being included in the promised restoration:

Isaiah 49:5 “And now the Lord says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”​

The true temple of God now & eternally is of course the church, comprising redeemed Jews & Gentiles as one people of God:

Eph. 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.​

 

The verse you might consider is the Ezekiel passage giving the measurements and the fact that the prophecy of the Revelation obviously declares the presence.

Modern tools are not the problem. Contemporary tools to the building and upkeep were used from the time of the tabernacle.

The “dome” is not an issue considering what better way for the working of Satan to bring about remarkable “world piece” at the start of the tribulation than to settle Middle East problems. However, the Scriptures, IMO, are silent as far as how that all transpires, only that it does.

Besides, proximity was not an issue to the Jews concerning area evil at anytime. Remember the money changers?


It is not so much the popular writer’s concepts, for the Hollywood versions generally contain truth, but the amount maybe little. They are read and watched more for entertainment than truthfulness.

What matters is that Scriptures never fail.

The Father gave specific prophecy through The Word.

The Word became flesh and all that was spoken and done by The Word was dictated by the Father.

The Father gave specific prophecy concerning the end.

The Scriptures are completely reliable as presenting the truth from the beginning to the amen.

 

Do not confuse Hollywood with the Scriptures.

Would it seem convenient and fitting for Christ to be born in the midst of the world ruled by the ungodly?

What manner of agreement with prophecy has been seen since my own father was born in 1907. Knowledge has exploded in every avenue of development.

Within my fathers life, man went from balloons to the moon.

I hand typed on a manual typewriter my first thesis paper, the second thesis just a couple years later was written on a 486 computer, now I use this iPad and arthritic finger. Research meant spending months in libraries to gather first hand accounts and more often travel. Now, more information is available then ever with a mouse that we used to set traps to kill.

Why would anyone not reasonably expect the complete destruction of the US and other events to not generate such conditions as to remarkably bring prophetic events into focus. It did a couple thousand years ago, and God had no problems.

I remember when last day writing and speeches were all consuming on college campuses. Hollywood joined in with all manner of alien invasion films. Even in this year they still crank out scenarios of one person standing out as the rescuer of all earth. How easily the one who manipulates will have in deceiving the nations.

 

If ever I found a cause to reject the amil's thinking, it was in this area. There was just no possible understandable way of reconciling Scriptures about the events of prophecy concerning the matters of Rev. 11 and that thinking of the amill. Without manipulating and discrediting the veracity of the Scriptures causing a great misalignment with greater portions of prophecy.

Why would amill thinking present such a view?

If they held securely sound at the first coming, even down to the town of the birth, and what mourning would result, why not the prophetic events relating to the end of the age, return and eternity?

This, again, is a problem with the amill thinking.

To whom were OT Scriptures written? The Jews. They apply to believers only as the gentile is "grafted in."

Therefore, there is no inconsistency in allowing the Jews to return to sacrificial worship and sin offerings in the last days.

It is NOT contrary to the Gospel and New Covenant, IF one recalls for whom the temple serves.

​

You may be right.

Personally, I think the two witnesses are the only two in the Scriptures that have not yet died in the flesh, Elijah and Methuselah. The disagreement is mere opinion, for the Scriptures merely state them as witnesses that have great authority and in whom the world despise.

I would contend that at any temple/tabernacle of the Jews it can be considered "the temple of God." Doesn't mean God dwells there, for remember the prophet records God leaving. But the title remained, and in Christ's day He referred to the Temple as "My Father's house."

The Ezekiel temple built in the future is (according to the Scriptures) is that very temple which the Son chose to establish the rule over nations. It HAS to be. For there IS NO temple in the NEW Heaven (for the first heaven is removed).

22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
​

So, the ONLY place that Ezekiel's temple can be built and in which the Son rules is the one yet future.

This was answered above.

There is NO temple in the new heaven and new earth. The prophecy concerning the eternal estate does not allow for such thinking of a building.

Rather, just as the apostles names are carved into the foundation, so the believers are built upon it.

These are construction terms the early church understood, but because the typical person is not in construction, they may not appreciate all the beauty of the expressions.

 

If I may say so, this is erroneous thinking.
Romans 15:4. 'For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we, by the patience and comfort of the Scripture might have hope.'
1 Peter 1:10-12. 'Of this salvation the prophets have enquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you........To them it was revealed that, not to themselves but to us they were ministering the things which now have been rep[orted to you by those who have preached the gospel to you.......'

These two texts are absolutely clear that the O.T. Scriptures were actually written to N.T. believers.

Reference Rev. 11, here is my understanding of the Two Witnesses:

Verses 2- 3. ‘And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.’

So who are these two witnesses? Various suggestions have been put forward. Are they the Old and New Testaments? Law and Grace? Enoch and Elijah? Elijah and Moses? John the Baptist and Jesus? No, it is none of those; it is the true Church of God that has just been measured. As usual, the clue is in the Old Testament. ‘One witness is not enough to convict a man of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the mouths of two or three witnesses’ (Deut 19:15). The Lord Jesus sent His disciples out two by two (Luke 10:1), ‘As a witness’ (Matt 24:14).

The Church’s witness is to last 1260 days. As we have seen, this is a time equal to the 42 months during which the persecution of God’s people takes place and represents the entire Gospel age. So why is the time expressed here in days rather than months? Because the witness must go on day by day by day; ‘In season and out of season’ (2 Tim. 4:2); whether people will hear it or not (Ezek. 2:3-5). The witnesses are dressed in sackcloth, the garb of mourners, for they are mourning over the sins of the people. In Britain today, a clown’s outfit might seem more suitable given some of the forms of evangelism popular in this country, but the scroll that John has eaten is the same one that Ezekiel received, and that one was covered with ‘ lamentation , mourning and woe’ (Ezek. 2:9-10). The witnesses have a sombre message to proclaim of God’s wrath against sin and of impending judgement.

The witnesses are also ‘The two olive trees and the two lampstands.’ This is a reference to Zech. 4. The purpose of a lampstand is to give light, and therefore refers to the true Church (Matt. 5:14ff). The olive trees supply oil to the lampstands and therefore speak of the Holy Spirit who gives power to the Church’s witness.

[Taken from my blog. For my take on the rest of the chapter read Revelation Part 7. The Temple Measured, and the Two Witnesses ]

 

"Written for our learning" and "written to" are not the same thing. the original audience for the OT is the Jews. That does not negate that God intended us the gentiles to learn from them.

 

I put the two texts side by side to forestall that very argument.
I am not claiming that the O.T. had no relevance to the Jews; that would be silly. But those texts teach very clearly that the primary recipients were N.T. believers.

 

I saw what you put together and no they do not teach that. "Written for our learning" does not mean the direct intended audience is us.

 

What the quote ACTUALLY says is much different than that presented above:

4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

This passage, in no matter of rendering, is be taken as the Scriptures were written specifically and only for believers. The same way that Christ cannot be considered ONLY sent into this world to "seek and to save that which is lost."

Context agrees that the instruction is to show the faithfulness of God and bearing each other's burdens, just as exampled in Christ. The "instruction" is that of example, a tutorial, that done in tuition.

Peter expresses that the prophets inquired about the GRACE to come and the time of the Messiah - the Savior - this salvation in which they were writing. But that is not stating that the Scriptures written were solely for believers. It is that Christ would suffer and glories would follow. That such suffering and glories were for the believers and announced by those who brought the gospel to them under the authority of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.​

 

Yes specific prophecy that already happened, And in the way Jesus said it would happen. The temple destroyed with in that generation.

How so? Thats what you are claiming is going to happen. Exactly what I said.

Source? Since the Temple fell in ad 70.

Never claimed that, What I claimed was people are going to understand what happened if half the church population disappeared.

Sorry, My bible does not mention this.

 

Prof70 said, “Source? Since the Temple fell in ad 70.”

Herod’s temple was destroyed.

That was not the temple of Ezekiel’s prophecy. Ezekiel’s temple is yet to be built.

 

What better then to ask the Jewish people:

This building (Ezekiels Temple) would have been fit for them then, when they emerged from exile, had there been an everlasting redemption. However, their sin caused this to not happen; for their repentance was not suitable. In other words, they did not resolve to stop sinning. Therefore, they were freed only through the sanction of Cyrus and his son.

Did the Jews Disregard Ezekiel’s Prophecy of the Temple?

Exactly, the temple was for them if they did not keep rejecting God. But since they kept sinning the Temple was NOT built. The Jews never met the condition for this temple.

Why do you insist Animal sacrifices must Return? Did Jesus not pay the full price of any sacrifice?

 

I don't think so. I quoted from the NKJV.
I did not say that the O.T. Scriptures were written only for our instruction and learning, but they are written specifically for that purpose. Peter tells us that the prophets came to understand that what they were prophesying was not for themselves but for us.
I think it's pretty clear.

 

God destroyed the Temple in AD 70 when the Old Covenant, which had been rendered obsolete by Christ's death and resurrection finally vanished away (Hebrews 8:13). The Lord Jesus is the One greater than the Temple (Matthew 12:6), and the New Covenant Temple already has been rebuilt (John 2:19-22; Revelation 21:22). It is to Christ that we now come to offer our sacrifices (Romans 12:1).

We are never commanded eagerly to expect a new Temple, but we are commanded eagerly to expect the Lord Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:28 etc.).

 

You do realize that none of God’s prophecy of either the first advent nor the second is dependent upon human response?

The Ezekiel temple is coupled with exactly what God would do to the people. Again, such is not based upon human ability. Look back at the prophecy in Ezekiel and see if human ability is involved or if the humans are responding to God’s work done in them. Clue, it is the latter.

Your second question is very appropriate because it is often the question.

Perhaps the answer is the Jews are not redeemed (other than the specified number of very tribe) until “they look upon Him whom they pierced and mourn.” That statement is part of Zachariah’s (12) statement concerning the Jews just prior the return of Christ, and their response of seeing of Him. Read the whole chapter to get a more complete picture. Again, it can fit no other time but that which we are entering.

So one must remember the Jews currently will by nature of there cultural religious exercise return to sacrifices.


In my opinion, after the Lord returns the temple will serve as a place of praise and thanksgiving offerings. There are certain glimpses of such in the psalms.

The Scriptures plainly state that there is no temple in the final eternal place prepared.

 

I still do not see third temple anywhere in the bible.

 

Again, Ezekiel prophecy.
1) not first temple (Solomon’s) - destroyed - did not fit dimensions given to Ezekiel
2) not second temple (Herod’s) - destroyed - did not fit the dimensions given to Ezekiel
3) must be future temple - will be destroyed - is being designed to the dimensions of Ezekiel’s prophecy.

Ezekiel’s vision was not a single verse, passage, chapter, but extends over multiple chapters. Other than the Revelation, there is no vision of such specificity, and this (unlike that of Revelation) is directed at the Jewish nation.

Few Orthodox Jews do not look at this prophecy as needing to be complete prior to what they consider the messiah rule. This is one reason (IMO) that the deception of the Antichrist will be so very complete. They still long for that political ruler.


There are abundant (some very poor others educational) drawings and comparisons of the temples on line.

I am not suggesting that you get enamoured with any, but use some as a conception tool of the size, and especially what is left out of this temple that was in the previous ones.

It matters little other than the consistency, validity, and reliability of Scriptures, just how the believer imagines the events of the end times.

What does matter is that no event, disappoints, disagreements, dilemmas, ... rob one of the joy of the Lord.

What God said will happen, will happen.

The old man had been given a personal promise from God. He daily walked the temple longing to see the messiah. Each day the sunset to the start of a new day and he did not find the heart’s desire.

Of all the young mothers there to worship, he was drawn to one holding her firstborn. Taking the child, he was moved to say:

29“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;

30For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,

32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed— 35and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

​

The point being, no matter the events the world may distract, and even those of worship, the promises of God do not fail.