1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mt. 20:28 and different Gospels

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by UZThD, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. The Harvest

    The Harvest New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. Rom 10:13

    Jesus never said that.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    1
    You won't find these exact words in the Bible, but Abraham DID believe the work of Jesus Christ, maybe not by name, in the future would pay the penalty for his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]===


    OK. I can admit if I'm wrong.

    Just show me where it says "Abraham did believe in the work of JC."
    </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: Again, you won't find "Abraham believed in J.C.". The Bible says that "Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness". This is the same "believe" that is in "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If you don't believe Abraham believed in the future coming of God's son you can substitute anything after "Abraham believed_________ and it was credited to him as righteousness" and it would be true! God's Word tells us what kind of "believing" credits us as righteous.
     
  3. The Harvest

    The Harvest New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is Paul teaching salvation by grace and not works.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Here is Jesus teaching works salvation by the Mosaic Law before His work on the cross.
    Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
    23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
     
  4. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    it's not really preaching but prophesying until it happens.

    ===


    Really? What is your proof of that? Is that based on the Grk words as kerusso or what?

    ===

    He did teach His death and resurrection. But nobody understood what He was talking about until after it happened. He also didn't require them to understand for salvation. Remember that He opened their understanding after he arose.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===


    IMO nobody understands today either unless God opens their hearts. Wouldn't you agree? Isn't that what the HS does?

    Regardless, unless you can provide just ONE thing that Paul called his Gospel which Jesus did not preach, then, IMO the two preached the same Gospel. So, is there ONE thing or not?
     
  5. The Harvest

    The Harvest New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    i don't speak greek nor do i need to.

    Can i prove it? No and I don't think you can prove it's incorrect. It's a matter of interpretation of the words preach and prophesy. There's no sense in us arguing this point either, IMO.
     
  6. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is Paul teaching salvation by grace and not works.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Here is Jesus teaching works salvation by the Mosaic Law before His work on the cross.
    Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
    23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    So do you think that Jesus' is saying that until He dies for sin that ONLY those who SELL ALL they have and give it to the poor and FOLLOW Him are saved? Well, then Lazarus was lost as he kept his house. And Peter was lost because he kept his boat. Does that make sense? And so were all the thousands who believed but did not sell all and give all to the poor and follow Him.

    Besides how is selling all etc setting up the Jewish kingdom?

    Does it not rather make sense that Jesus spoke of Law in order to make sin obvious and to make His sacrifice (Mt 20:28) so obviously needed?
     
  7. The Harvest

    The Harvest New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did.
     
  8. The Harvest

    The Harvest New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is Paul teaching salvation by grace and not works.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Here is Jesus teaching works salvation by the Mosaic Law before His work on the cross.
    Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
    23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    So do you think that Jesus' is saying that until He dies for sin that ONLY those who SELL ALL they have and give it to the poor and FOLLOW Him are saved? Well, then Lazarus was lost as he kept his house. And Peter was lost because he kept his boat. Does that make sense? And so were all the thousands who believed but did not sell all and give all to the poor and follow Him.

    Besides how is selling all etc setting up the Jewish kingdom?

    Does it not rather make sense that Jesus spoke of Law in order to make sin obvious and to make His sacrifice (Mt 20:28) so obviously needed?
    </font>[/QUOTE]You can read whatever you want into it. That guy asked Him how to receive eternal life and Jesus told him what to do. If Christ preached the same exact message as Paul He would have said call upon my name and thou shalt be saved.
     
  9. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    i don't speak greek nor do i need to.

    Can i prove it? No and I don't think you can prove it's incorrect. It's a matter of interpretation of the words preach and prophesy. There's no sense in us arguing this point either, IMO.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    Perhaps I cannot prove I'm right or that you're wrong, but I don't think arguments should be made on propositions which are unevidenced. But I agree, let's forget this point. Plenty else.
     
  10. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    So do you think that Jesus' is saying that until He dies for sin that ONLY those who SELL ALL they have and give it to the poor and FOLLOW Him are saved? Well, then Lazarus was lost as he kept his house. And Peter was lost because he kept his boat. Does that make sense? And so were all the thousands who believed but did not sell all and give all to the poor and follow Him.

    Besides how is selling all etc setting up the Jewish kingdom?

    Does it not rather make sense that Jesus spoke of Law in order to make sin obvious and to make His sacrifice (Mt 20:28) so obviously needed? [/qb][/QUOTE]You can read whatever you want into it. That guy asked Him how to receive eternal life and Jesus told him what to do. If Christ preached the same exact message as Paul He would have said call upon my name and thou shalt be saved. [/qb][/QUOTE]===


    You mean "prophesied." [​IMG]

    I thought He did in Jo 3.

    So, are you saying that Christ preached TWO Gospels simultaneously?

    One Gospel that He came to be a ransom and that belief on the Son WILL SAVE...


    ...and the other Gospel , "Forget belief in my sacrifice, my atoning death for sin, just go sell all you have to get saved"???
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    55
    Jesus never once told anyone to call upon his name like Paul did in Rom 10:13. Jesus didn't tell anyone to trust in His death, burial and resurrection for forgiveness of sins. But Paul did. Paul never said repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand like Jesus did (Matt 3:2). Their messages were different.

    Ultimately the message was the same. That Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven is essentially what they both preached. But Jesus could not preach His own death, burial and resurrection because it had not happened yet while he was teaching the Jewish people. After Jesus arose, He only appeared to those who were already His followers. Paul and the others preached that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. But they were able to tell the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are incorrect again. Simply read Scripture.

    John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    John 12:23, 24
    23. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
    24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


    John 3:14-16
    14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

    John 2:19-21
    19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21. But he spake of the temple of his body.


    Enough Said. :D :D :D :D
     
  12. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did. </font>[/QUOTE]===

    sorry. Be patient and say it again briefly please.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    55
    The Apostle Paul states in Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    What gospel was preached to Abraham? The Apostle Paul said there was only one Gospel which is the power of God unto Salvation. [Romans 1:16].
     
  14. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    You won't find these exact words in the Bible, but Abraham DID believe the work of Jesus Christ, maybe not by name, in the future would pay the penalty for his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]===


    OK. I can admit if I'm wrong.

    Just show me where it says "Abraham did believe in the work of JC."
    </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: Again, you won't find "Abraham believed in J.C.". The Bible says that "Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness". This is the same "believe" that is in "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If you don't believe Abraham believed in the future coming of God's son you can substitute anything after "Abraham believed_________ and it was credited to him as righteousness" and it would be true! God's Word tells us what kind of "believing" credits us as righteous.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    I thought what Abraham believed was that God would make him the father of many nations. That's what Gen 15:1-6 says. IMo Paul is not implying that Abraham knew of a coming Savior who would die fof his sin. But maybe I'm wrong.
     
  15. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Apostle Paul states in Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    What gospel was preached to Abraham? The Apostle Paul said there was only one Gospel which is the power of God unto Salvation. [Romans 1:16].
    </font>[/QUOTE]===


    GREAT counter! I think I'm wrong! But the KJV is wrong because that which has not happened must be prophesied, not preached (just kidding!)
     
  16. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. Rom 10:13

    Jesus never said that.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    Well, this was preached by Joel too, right? And Peter too in Acts 2?

    But doesn't Jesus say essentially this Himself in Jo 7:37,38?

    Ah well, I'm off for a while. Being wrong about Abraham is simply too embarrasing :D
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    1
    You won't find these exact words in the Bible, but Abraham DID believe the work of Jesus Christ, maybe not by name, in the future would pay the penalty for his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]===


    OK. I can admit if I'm wrong.

    Just show me where it says "Abraham did believe in the work of JC."
    </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: Again, you won't find "Abraham believed in J.C.". The Bible says that "Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness". This is the same "believe" that is in "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If you don't believe Abraham believed in the future coming of God's son you can substitute anything after "Abraham believed_________ and it was credited to him as righteousness" and it would be true! God's Word tells us what kind of "believing" credits us as righteous.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    I thought what Abraham believed was that God would make him the father of many nations. That's what Gen 15:1-6 says. IMo Paul is not implying that Abraham knew of a coming Savior who would die fof his sin. But maybe I'm wrong.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Abraham believing that he would be the father of many nations wouldn't credit him as righteousness. How are we believers credited as "righteous"?
     
  18. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    You won't find these exact words in the Bible, but Abraham DID believe the work of Jesus Christ, maybe not by name, in the future would pay the penalty for his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]===


    OK. I can admit if I'm wrong.

    Just show me where it says "Abraham did believe in the work of JC."
    </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: Again, you won't find "Abraham believed in J.C.". The Bible says that "Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness". This is the same "believe" that is in "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If you don't believe Abraham believed in the future coming of God's son you can substitute anything after "Abraham believed_________ and it was credited to him as righteousness" and it would be true! God's Word tells us what kind of "believing" credits us as righteous.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    I thought what Abraham believed was that God would make him the father of many nations. That's what Gen 15:1-6 says. IMo Paul is not implying that Abraham knew of a coming Savior who would die fof his sin. But maybe I'm wrong.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Abraham believing that he would be the father of many nations wouldn't credit him as righteousness. How are we believers credited as "righteous"?
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    I belive OR supplied your proof to me in the form of a quote from Gal. So, you are right and I am wrong. I have been wrong before. That was in...uh...let's see...1967 it was :rolleyes:
     
Loading...