Murph saw the passion finally!!!!

Okay, okay, y'all have FINALLY convinced me... The granny will come out of the dark ages & start living right...I'm tired of being stuck in a time-warp!

So even tho' I haven't been to a picture show in years, & even tho' this one is rated "R", I guess(since I am an old-fogey), I will go see jesus.

I'll even buy me one of them niv's or whatevers just so's I can be more up todate on my knowledge. I'm sooo tired of being an ignoramous.

Who wants standards anymore? Who needs discernment anyhow? Hey, let's all get together & sing "Oh how I love Jesus, while I drink my margaritas"...we can get the watchmen off the wall & have one big bash...no need to watch & warn in these days of ever-increasing deception!

Oh what a party this is gonna be...maybe the egg-laying bunny will bring me a present down the chimney next year! And the people love to have it so!

Get your wagons in a circle, boys, the devil is a deceiver and it's time to lock'n'load!

 

Dear blackbird and C4K,
Perhaps you can (if your minds are not already made up ) see from granny's post where your line of argument is being taken by many.
Which is that if I think that "The Passion" movie is useful in any way, to any degree, then it's just a matter of time till I am drinking margaritas as I give up the KJV for the NIV.
No discernment on my part, etc. Well, I'll have to admit I already read the NIV.

No, blackbird, if you did that, you would not last long at my church. But just like "when did you stop beating your wife", the way you keep asking the question presupposes the result you want. It is an interesting thing that when Murph, a fundamentalist Baptist pastor, goes to see the movie and says it was not exactly what he had thought, that you and C4K are seeming to chalk it up to just one more case of bad discernment. Yet I thought he gave a very careful presentation that was not exactly wholehearted support.

I am not a Catholic. Much of Catholic doctrine is wrong. But lately on the BB opponents of the movie have gone overboard on the mysticism thing.
I think that the movie powerfully discusses Who Jesus is, why He came, and what He did.
It speaks clear truth about the Lord Jesus.
Are some overblown in their support? I think so.
It is just a movie.
Are some overblown in their criticism. I think so. If a movie had been made intertwining Biblical events in the life of Jesus with "Two From Galilee", a novel by Marjorie Holmes, would that be wrong? I don't think so. The "divination" aspects include a side vignette of a woman trying to assist Jesus. Of artistic depictions of a tear from Heaven.

There are a whole lot of issues tied up here on what is art and how we use it.
I'll mention one again. Suppose I said to someone who likes "The Gospel of John" when are you going to stop breaking the Second Commandment?

I have a number of Reformed friends, Baptist and otherwise, who think ANY visual portrayal of Jesus on earth is per se a violation of the Second Commandment. I disagree. As I am guessing you disagree. But "when are you going to stop breaking the Second Commandment" is loaded, just like "when are you going to stop supporting divination"?
My answer: never, because I haven't started.

Karen

 

Karen,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have never questioned those who choose to go. That is surely up to each individual.

I do contend however that we as Christians should be discerning in all that we do and all that we view. My own discernment in this matter leads me to avoid this movie. I do not think it is wise for us to support it, but I also do not answer for the choice anyone makes in the matter, other than myself.

Is that saying I am more discerning than anyone else? No. I am certain that there are things I do that your discernment would lead you not to do as well.

BTW, I do not believe that support of this movie will lead you down the "slippery slope" of compromise .


Roger

 

I hope everyone knows I was just having fun with my post...and have NO intentions of adding a 'little leaven' to my life...not now, not ever.

 

Seems to me that Catholic folk are preoccupied with the crucifixion. I get EWTN in my area and often see one of their priests giving a lecture while pacing back and forth carrying a big crucifixion across his shoulder, kinda like a soldier marching with his rifle. Then I'll see a nun giving a lecture with a big crucifixion attached to the front of her outfit. Why do they love to depict Jesus dying on the cross?

Same with Mel's movie. Very little dialogue leading up to the scourging and crucifixion, plenty of his suffering before and on the cross, then just a glimpse of His resurrection.

The movie was riveting. My complaint is that there was not enough of the meaning behind it explained. But, maybe that was done for a reason.

 

Karen wrote:
I think that the movie powerfully discusses Who Jesus is, why He came, and what He did.
It speaks clear truth about the Lord Jesus.
Are some overblown in their support? I think so.
It is just a movie . . . Are some overblown in their criticism. I think so. The "divination" aspects include a side vignette of a woman trying to assist Jesus. Of artistic depictions of a tear from Heaven.


MalkyEL: I am confused. You say it is "just a movie" but, "it speaks clear truth about the Lord Jesus" - h m m m . . . and it contains artistic depictions. So if we present Jesus cloaked in divination, in a hollywood production, with artistic license using mysticism that this glories Who He Is, the work that He did, and the sacrifice that He made.

Could you explain to me how this is the same Truth that is found in God's Word?

 

Granny G:

Hey, let's all get together & sing "Oh how I love Jesus, while I drink my margaritas"...


S&T:

Can I get mine with the little umbrella in it.....who makes those anyway?


Granny G:

we can get the watchmen off the wall & have one big bash...


S&T:

If we feed them enough margaritas, they will fall off the wall...

Granny G:

no need to watch & warn in these days of ever-increasing deception!

S&T:

They are not listening anyway.....pass the margaritas

Now everybody sing along...

"Wasted away again in Mel's passionville.....

Ignorence is bliss.....BUT...


"The Truth shall make you free"


nevermind.....turn off the blenders

 

How can some of these comments be honoring the Lord Jesus Christ - especially the ridicule towards Murph and those who have seen the film?

It is no wonder some people are turned off by Christians.

 

LE:

How can some of these comments be honoring the Lord Jesus Christ ....

S&T:

That was exactly my question about the movie. This is not Jesus in this film, or even a reasonable facimile, and in all reality, the non divine "Jesus" that Mel has created from using demonically inspired sources is not only a lie, but an abomination. Didn't Elijah mock the prophets of baal for their idol worship? This movie promotes elevation of Mary, which last time I checked the scriptures, constitutes idol worship, and also a weak "Jesus" who needs the strength of Mary and the encouragement of Simon to go on.

LE:

especially the ridicule towards Murph and those who have seen the film?

S&T:

I am not ridiculing anyone. I am speaking what I believe to be the truth supported by scripture. I like murph.....

 

Well I don't think it did & I saw the movie.

This thread has turned into a "hen party."

 

LE:

Well I don't think it did & I saw the movie.

S&T:

Well, I know it did, and could point out all of the areas, but nobody would acknowledge it anyway. I saw the movie also......four times.

LE:

This thread has turned into a "hen party."

S&T:

Let's look on the "bright" side. At least it is not a "passion" party.

 

Over the years there have been a few men of God that really impacted my life for Christ. The first pastor I had as a new believer, was a true example of a life and heart focused for Christ. His compassion and sincerity, and gentleness, but strength, were qualities that were new to me. He always pointed to Christ and the Word of God as holding the answer to all that affects our lives. He and his family were actually the first Christians I really got to know.

Maybe the most significant in our lives was a brilliant pastor who had taught at a university and then in his 40's felt God would have him be a pastor. We met him at a time of crisis. He truly lived Christ. There was no partiality towards people and his heart focus was fully honoring and serving the Lord Jesus Christ. I've forgotten the actual number, but, know that he had memorized more than 20 books of the Bible. Which was an accomplishment, as memorization did not come easy to him.

Just before easter one sunday morning, in Sunday School class he turned and responded to a question I had asked. Those words are forever planted in my mind. He told me that I must always speak up. In that second of hearing that, I had a conscious thought/response and resolve that went through my mind that said, Yes Doug, you are right, I will always speak up. With that, Doug went pale and went and sat sideways on the front pew. I was closest to him and got to him first.

He died in my arms that morning, of a massive heart attack, doing the thing he loved most, teaching God's people to always use the Word of God as their Standard of Truth. There was no suffering, at least that was apparent. He simply sat down, passed out and his body went through some convulsions, but he didn't seem to be there. He was gone in a matter of moments. While trying to loosen his tie so CPR could be administered, his wife was called from the class she had been teaching. I remember glancing up and literally locking eyes with her. I was torn with trying to help her husband to going to her and holding her.

What is really of significance, Doug had always desired of God to be taken Home doing the thing he loved best, teaching the Word of God. God honored him for his faithfulness. I will never forget those last words he spoke to me, or that he spoke to me last. I was struggling at that time with feeling it was at times pointless to speak about things and always to weigh all to the Word of God. His final words became a pledge I suppose to never stop speaking up again, regardless of who liked or didn't like it.

I was thinking of that because of the time of year, and memories just sort of came back. I know that he was one of those that could have applied the verses
like,

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

He was such an example of steadiness and sincerity. He really lived it. My husband has often said he wished he had known him a lot longer. One could never have said of him that he was wavering in his faith or knowledge and likewise with our very first pastor and both were thought of in terms of v 6, and I doubt there was a person that new them that could have thought of either, in terms of v,7 and 8 :
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Their faith was incredible and so consistent, and such an example to us. As I was thinking about Doug, I wondered how he would have reviewed the Passion, and what his take of the following information would be, simply based on knowing how he always was an example of analyzing things to the Word of God.

Explaining the “moving and emotional and efficacious†aspects of the Catholic Latin Mass, Mr. Gibson stated, on EWTN, the world’s largest Catholic television broadcasting organization, that his goal and intention for making this movie:

"...is to shake modern audiences by brashly juxtaposing the “sacrifice of the cross with the sacrifice of the altar - which is the same thing.â€

In an interview with Christianity Today, Gibson told of his amazement that evangelical Christians were among the most receptive to his film depiction of Christ and Mary, who Gibson calls “a tremendous co-redemptrix and mediatrix.†"I’ve been actually amazed at the way I would say the evangelical audience has - hands down - responded to this film more than any other Christian group.†What makes it so amazing, he says, is that “the film is so Marian.â€

The Christianity Today article showed that the response to the Mary of the movie has been profound:

Gibson says, “The way the film displays [Mary] has been kind of an eye opener for evangelicals who don’t understand the reality of a mother and a son.â€

Catholic bookstores market the revelations and visions of Anne Emmerich, contained in the book entitled - The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, as “The Book That Inspired Mel Gibson to Film The Passion Of The Christ.†The book states, “she was accustomed to have divine knowledge imparted to her in visions of all kinds, and was often favored by visits from the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven.†She claimed apparitions of John the Baptist also.

The Dedication page of the book reads: “To the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, Help of Christians, and Refuge of the Human Race.â€

Directly from Anne Catherine Emmerich’s book, quotes confirm Mel Gibson's stated source, for example, of the Marian and Eucharist scenes for the movie .

"The Blessed Virgin was ever united to her Divine Son by interior spiritual communications; she was, therefore, fully aware of all that happened to him - she suffered with him, and joined in his continual prayer for his murderers. "

"I soon after saw Mary and Magdalen approach the pillar where Jesus had been scourged; …they knelt down on the ground near the pillar, and wiped up the sacred blood with the linen Claudia Procles [Pontius Pilate’s wife] had sent."

[At the foot of the cross] the Blessed Virgin, filled with intense feelings of motherly love, entreated her Son to permit her to die with him…

From page 174, and in the movie, after Peter denies Jesus, he falls at Mary’s feet and says, “Mother, I have denied Him.â€

Page 258-259 , and catholic doctrine of the stations of the cross. The unbiblical character Veronica who wipes Jesus’ bloody face.

Page 316, and catholic doctrine. The manner that Mary receives and cradles Jesus body, Pieta style.

"It was made known to me (Emmerich) that these [evil manifestations] were all those persons who in divers ways insult and outrage Jesus, really and truly present in the Holy Sacrament. I recognized among them all those who in any way profane the Blessed Eucharist."

Catholic author Michael Brown, of the website Spirit Daily, on February 28,2004 in the article, “Passion is seen as a movie with potential to cause profound and lasting effects,†explained that the movie may help unite Christians. "I have never seen a better possibility for popular ecumenical dialogue. We all have common ground - and though Gibson is Catholic (a traditionalist at that), his most fervent support so far has come from Baptists, Pentecostals, and Evangelicals.

Brown also noted some other potential 'positive' results of the movie:
"Another [effect] involves Mary. This movie presents the Blessed Mother in a way that reintroduces her to Protestants. They are able to see her as someone they can relate to. She is down to earth. They will laugh with her. They will cry with her. They’ll more fully appreciate (as will everyone else) what she went through. Hopefully, they’ll grow to love her. During the Last Supper scenes, they may also gain a better understanding of the Eucharist."

Ascension Press and Catholic Exchange have provided a Catholic guide and witnessing companion to the film entitled, "A Guide to the Passion: 100 Questions About 'The Passion of the Christ.'"

Those stating the movie Scripturally accurate and non- offensive to the Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ, might wish to add this book to their witnessing arsenal, so the unsaved can fully comprehend the full catholic gospel message of the movie, and be saved.

Author of the helpful book, Matthew Pinto, shared with ZENIT news agency how the book will “help Catholics and non-Catholics understand the Eucharistic and Marian significance shown in the movie, know the case for Christ, learn about the Church Jesus instituted and respond accordingly in their faith lives.â€

In the interview, ZENIT asked Pinto the following question - “Why is a particularly Catholic guidebook important in order to understand the movie?â€

Pinto replied: "A Catholic guide is necessary because the Gospels are completely Catholic, as is the movie. Even still, many will not see or understand the more sublime teachings that the director and writers are putting forth through this epic film.... the heavily Eucharistic and Marian emphasis of the film is something that a well-catechized Catholic will easily see, but many uncatechized Catholics and many Protestants will not deeply grasp."

"As stated in the introduction to the book, understanding the profound Marian and Eucharistic imagery and theology really requires a deep understanding of Catholicism. "

"Our Protestant brothers and sisters, who are to be commended for their evangelical fervor and creativity in promoting this film, are generally not schooled in these issues."

Pinto explained that this "witnessing tool" would provide a "scene-by-scene commentary on the theological and artistic aspects of the film" to help Catholics educate and evangelize non-Catholics. When asked, “Does the guide anticipate Protestant skepticism about the Eucharistic elements?" he replied, " We simply explain the connection between the sacrifice of Calvary and the sacrifice of the Mass"

Jim Caviezel, the actor that played this Jesus, and who looks to Mary for guidance, stated in one interview, that friends during the filming, "...gave me a piece of the true cross. I kept this on me all the time. They made a special pocket in my clothes for it. I also had relics of Padre Pio, St. Anthony of Padoua, Ste Maria Goretti, and saint Denisius, the Patron saint of Actor....This film is something that I believe was made by Mary for her Son..." http://www.spiritdaily.com/gibsonmiracles.htm

According to Spirit Daily, "The actor says he was brought back to his faith in large part through attendance of an apparition with seer Ivan Dragicevic of Medjugorje -- the famous site in Bosnia-Hercegovina. "We talked, and later when we were praying the Rosary Ivan said Mary came in the room and I felt something wonderful happening to me," Caviezel says. "When the apparition was over, I got up and told Ivan I wanted [Mary and Jesus] in my heart."

Mr. Gibson told the National Catholic Register, March 16-22, 2003, in an article titled, Three Nails, a Camera and a Cross: On the Set of Mel Gibson's The Passion, by Raymond Cleaveland, Register Correspondent, "When I was 35, I started praying the Prayers of St. Bridget and they really helped me understand what the passion was all about..." http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/030903gibson.htm

Catholics who follow St. Bridget's fifteen prayers, are expected to pray them daily, with a total of 5480 prayers in the year, to honor the visions of Bridget concerning the Passion, and to equal the number of wounds He received. She wrote that Jesus had received that number of wounds during His trial, scourging, and crucifixion, and that she was given this information directly by Jesus.

St. Bridget's third prayer states:

"...remember the very bitter pain Thou didst suffer when the Jews nailed Thy Sacred Hands and Feet to the Cross by blow after blow with big blunt nails, and not finding Thee in a pitiable enough state to satisfy their rage, they enlarged Thy Wounds, and added pain to pain, and with indescribable cruelty stretched Thy Body on the Cross, pulled Thee from all sides, thus dislocating Thy Limbs."

I can't help but wonder if Doug's response to Emmerich, Bridget, Agreda, and the catholic doctrine, which end result is that there is no salvation outside the catholic church, would be with some Scripture.

Actually there's no doubt in my mind or my husband's, that he would not look to outside sources or what others said. He would merely look to the Word of God. I suspect that he would have used Scriptures like

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Job 14:4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

I think Doug would have quoted Scripture to me, if I had asked him about this information, and would have said,

Jesus, our Lord, said very clearly:

Mattew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit

For some reason I miss Doug this week. We continue to be hopeful that we will find others who live it with such a solid example. We rejoice when we do come across those who live it like they did/do. There's obviously some on BB. And that is encouraging. My apologies this got so long.

 

LE:especially the ridicule towards Murph and those who have seen the film?


Interesting statement. I've personally been accused of being an enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, a Jew lover or a muslim or atheist, for saying no to the movie and yes to Biblical soundness. Perhaps they are right. Although, the whole Gospel isn't presented in the movie, and what is presented is Catholic...maybe I am just confused.

 

Lady Eagle--I'm not against Murph---Murph is a good cyber buddy and I love to read his comments on the board---I feel that Murph is a man of the word!! No, I'm not against Murph!

I am, though against the movie---I don't see it as a good witness tool at all---and it gripes me that seminaries of the SBC are now using it as a teaching tool---God help us! Its the same thing as training US combat troops over at Fort Benning or Fort Rucker or over at Camp Shelby---using Saving Private Ryan as a training tool.

Since the movie has been out---the witness encounters I have had have been countless---and not one of those encounters have been revolved around the movie Passion! What is expected??? That we should go door to door---knockin' on doors of every household in America--askin', "Excuse me! Have you seen the Passion?"

 

S&T

Okkkayy like there's a point to your "rebuttle" of me telling Murph that opposers of him seeing the movie will get over it. I have no desire to debate this movie with anyone, in my opinion it's pointless. I know where I stand on the movie, and despite what perhaps even college educated folks might say, think or do it won't change what God did through the movie to effect my life. You and others are free to disagree with how I see it, no, the movie isn't 100% accurate to scripture but yes, I do believe it's very useful in reaching others for Jesus Christ and has already done so.

BTW, when I say "think for yourself" I mean don't simply rely on what another has to say but do your own homework on it....like the scripture says..."Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth"...don't rely on someone else's thoughts and research, do your own and THAT is why and what I am applauding Murph on.

 

Blackbird said: not one of those encounters have been revolved around the movie Passion! What is expected??? That we should go door to door---knockin' on doors of every household in America--askin', "Excuse me! Have you seen the Passion?"

Bro. David, I've started conversations in line at the store saying... 'Hey, did you see The Passion of the Christ' and had people say yes... it really upset me or yes... I didn't know what all happened to Jesus. I totally drop the movie subject and talk to them about MY Jesus! The MOVIE opened up the conversation but sharing JESUS was my intent! My witnessing has not revolved around a mere movie but this mere movie has allowed me to cut to the chase and jump right to sharing Jesus and what He did for ME and what He has done in my life. By starting this conversation on something like a movie (common ground), I've had MUCH better success at a longer conversation about Jesus than if I just walked up to someone and asked, 'Do you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior'. In my heart, I really believe people are being touched by the Holy Spirit, their hearts are being softened and their eyes and ears opened for US to step in and share Jesus.

A local church put fliers on every mailbox in town that are 4 page booklets that have a step by step explanation of what Jesus did for us, why He had to die, who actually killed Jesus, etc. It's that material from the SBC that you're fussing about but it's EXCELLENT! They, then, invite the person to drop by their church or call a couple of numbers if they have any questions or want to know more about how to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

I have a message on Jim's cell phone from a couple who just saw the movie after I shared with them about Jesus. They wanted to ask me some questions. They were both raised Catholic but had been visiting our church on my invitation. I've tried calling them but no answer. Pray for Vinne and Cathy and their little girl, Asia.

Diane

(listening to the sound track of The Passion of the Christ right now.)

 

There are three main things that bother me about this movie:

1. Even though Christians are warned about accepting any other Gospel account, they have little problems with the fifth Gospel... by Anne Catherine Emmerich.

So many claim "artistic license" when that's not really the case at all. Mel relies heavily on the fifth gospel, which be believes is truth... not artistic license... to tell Jesus' story. It would be different if Mel Gibson had just used creative license, but he didn't - he set out to make the most truthful account of Jesus' death possible.

2. People saying that while parts are not biblical, some other parts are. Just because it's not written doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Yeah, and Jesus and the disciples sang "Mary Had A Little Lamb" every day, too. It could have happened.

I see so many statements by those supporting the film that could also be said for The Last Temptation of Christ". While some of stuff in the film is not scriptural, there are some wonderfully touching scenes. There's a great scene when the Apostle Paul gives his testimony!

3. The evangelical leaders who endorsed this film as being the best evangelical tool in 2000 years. This fact has made me more skeptical than I was before regarding these people. I'm very disappointed in their judgement.

By the way - this is a free country. If you want to see the movie, go for it. It's not my right to tell anyone what to do. I'm just expressing my thoughts regarding the film.

If it hadn't been built up to be the greatest Gospel film ever I would be less inclined to comment. But because it's lifted up as such a fantistic record of Jesus' last 12 hours... it just bothers my spirit.

 

Perfect summation of my feelings. Plus the 5th gospel persepctive is bang on, thanks!

 

Well I don't think it did & I saw the movie.

This thread has turned into a "hen party." </font>[/QUOTE]I saw the movie and my honest opinion is that it plays up Mary too much. I say this knowing that Gibson is very Catholic and knowing nothing of Emmerich's writings other than what I have gleaned here.

For the folks that attempt to answer the accusations that Gibson followed Emmerich's writings by allowing him artistic license- If the events came from a Catholic mystic then the likelihood of them being genuine events is low... by virtue of their demonic origin.

For those who oppose all use and reference of the film- A man I have been witnessing to showed me a book yesterday given to him by his daughter after seeing the film. It was an RCC FAQ book by their evangelistic group. While you guys sit around and complain about the parts that were wrong- the RCC and other unsound groups are using it to draw people into their deception.

The parts that were realistic can and should be used while we tell the unwary where the unbiblical portions are and witness to them. Paul used an altar to a Greek idol to open the gospel to those who would listen... I don't think it is soiling myself to use this film.