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Name That Figure of Speech

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Feb 5, 2018.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    John, it is okay for you to suggest things about what I believe, or might believe, but when you get answered you complain. Why is that?

    Your failure to answer the the Acts15 passage quoting from Amos, then suggesting I am following liberals is a bit strange.
    I offer from reputable men, then you want to say it is unethical is just not so.

    Yes I did misread the portion from McClain, and said so....you never answered the Amos passage, hiding behind the tabernacle definition...which has nothing to do with Acts15.

    You said it was theological liberals who held postmill, I offer you a few portions showing it is not so and you want to fold up the tent.
     
    #121 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You wanted clarification...here it is, now you want the thread closed....here it is again...answer it...
    Well John...maybe this will clarify it for you....
    I believe Jesus rules and reigns from the throne in heaven right now.
    He rules heaven and earth in the MIDST of His enemies psalm110
    He dwells in Heaven , but rules also on earth through His Church who rules with Him.
    How do we know this?
    Acts 9
    9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

    2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

    3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

    4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    Now John.....who was Saul persecuting in verse1?
    What does Jesus say to Him in verse 4?

    How do you account for this John??? What does your literal hermeneutic suggest to you here?

    Jesus on a heavenly throne, disciples attacked by Saul on the earth, Jesus says Saul is persecuting HIM
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    post 117 answered something martin said.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I have told you many times that I don't like those long, involved posts, yet you still do them. Why is that?

    You have a terrible habit of posting long, multiple posts, then complaining when people don't answer them. You have snowed me under again. You have produced so much material, most of it irrelevant to the thread and what I wanted to talk about that it's ridiculous. I'm really tired of being snowed under by you. You did it to me on the last thread we interacted in--multiple posts, all very long, then--"Well, aren't you going to answer?" I have a day job serving the Lord.

    I DID NOT suggest that you were following liberals. Read what I said again.

    As for Acts 15, I WAS TRYING TO ANSWERING it. But no, you wouldn't interact with me on it. You don't have enough patience to actually interact with me enough to know where I am going.
     
    #124 John of Japan, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    John...the bottom line is, you are not answering once again...

    the posts are not that long. Some might not know the position, so the verses are for them.

    I would like you to respond to the post on Acts 9....Sauls persecution of Christians on earth, Jesus says that persecution of them was on He Himself. POST122
     
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Again you DEMAND an answer. Forget it. It's not worth it.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm sure you'll find a way to live with it. In fact, I'm putting you on ignore for this demanding attitude of yours. Sayonara.
    Yes they are. They are very long, and don't answer the thread anyway.
    Yeah, and I'd like a Lamborghini, but I'm not going to get it.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I think your view is very interesting, but I would suggest that it is close to an allegorical interpretation. Again, my view is that the parable is a type of sermon illustration, designed for rhetorical effect. As such, no parable introduces new truth, such as the vine being Israel. Parables only adorn truth that has been taught in plain language.

    Where I teach we have a kind of Keswick theology, if you are familiar with that. We interpret the vine as Christ, of course, but the branches are individual Christians (disciples, if you will). As a branch attached to the vine of Christ, we seek to live the Christ life with His spiritual nourishment and the energy of the Holy Spirit.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You had no trouble asking me for an answer...then you mocked my saying Jesus rules from Heaven over the earth...and is present in His Church, now you want to hide like a turtle ?Yes...I want you to answer, why do you think I answered you to begin with.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    They do answer the thread in a way you do not like is more like it.
    You once again cannot answer them, so you fabricate an excuse once again, avoid what you cannot answer, and find fault with the person answering you.
    If that makes you happy you live with that.
    If you had an answer it would have come out by now.....:Cautious
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    My apologies, John, I said I would present the concept in the vine being Israel as found in the Old Testament, and in my haste to get out of here earlier I plum forgot, lol.

    Here are a few:


    Psalm 80:8, 14-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

    14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;

    15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself.


    Isaiah 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

    2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

    3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

    4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

    5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

    6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

    7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.



    Jeremiah 2:18-21
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?

    19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts.

    20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

    21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?



    So we do not have something that is new, it is a concept that Jews would have understood. And we see the same concept throughout Christ's ministry.

    So the parable, like that of the Tabernacle (Hebrews 9), is that which can be viewed as the relationship God created with Israel when He brought them out of Egypt.

    So when Christ states "I am the True Vine," within that concept He presents is the reality of Christ being God Who made provision for Israel (from their very creation) and that He replaces Israel's long standing understanding (which was valid) of God being the One Who established the Vine (Israel).

    Instead of being brought into a land (in the creation of the Church, His Body), we are placed in Him.


    Not familiar with Keswick Theology.

    But I agree with the above, and again point out that this was true for Israel: when they remained in Him, they prospered. The difference being, when we are in the Vine what is guaranteed is pruning, and no possibility of not producing fruit.

    This...


    John 15
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

    2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.



    Is not spoken to born again Christians, for they have not yet been baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God in eternal union), are not eternally indwelt (as verified by His teaching in John 14, see also John 7:38-39), and as of yet are not believing on Him as the Risen Savior (see Mark 16:9-14). He is speaking to Jewish disciples and...

    ...speaking of the day that is coming when they will have to exchange relationship with God through the Covenant of Law with relationship with God through Jesus Christ.



    3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.



    In other words, the options are remaining under the Covenant of Law, or, abiding in the True Vine, which is relationship with Christ.


    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.



    Note that there is a definite command to abide, and those who do will not fail to bear fruit, which speaks of, not a relationship that can have men abiding or not, but only the possibility that one will abide or they will not.


    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



    Just as John the Baptist preached two outcomes for Christ's ministry, either being baptized with the Holy Ghost (eternal salvation, wheat gathered into His garner), or being baptized with fire (chaff, burned with unquenchable fire, familiar terminology for eternal judgment), that is no different here.

    Now, the last point I would make (I know this is getting a little long), is that the disciples cannot be said, at this time, to be abiding in Christ. They will forsake the Lord in just a few short hours, as it was prophesied:


    John 16:28-32
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

    30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

    31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.



    One could argue that they were weak in the flesh, but, in light of the evidence against their being born again Christians at this time, it makes little sense to raise that argument. Mark 16:9-14 shows that they did not believe the Lord had risen from the dead, and it was not until He rebukes them for their unbelief that they believe it is Him. The above shows Christ does not accept their claim of belief.

    Okay, a little long, but I do hope you will take the time to give this some thought. That is why I present it to you, because you seem to put a little more into considering things than most.


    God bless.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You mentioned you have a day job. So do I .
    my day job and involves driving 700 miles a day so at the end of the night when I try to respond to the questions I'm being asked I look it up, I look up stuff.
    I dig on stuff and then I start posting it .
    by that time you're not online so 6 or 7 of them come up on a thread that's what I'm looking at
    you don't have to read every sentence. that a shorter post might be read, but you could skim over the material and interact on portions.
    you you mentioned Alva McClain and he's got three or four different portions of his work broken up so I got to read through Page after page to find a paragraph or two and I pick out the paragraph and then I interact with the paragraph that's how it happens that's why is that.
    Another thing when I try shorter post you say oh it's not scholarly enough or oh that that man no he's not a PhD or everything else Under the Sun then when I post a couple of paragraphs you're ready to flip out.
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Really long post, dude. Tough to answer these. Confused
    Okey dokey.

    Your problem here re the subject of the thread is that figures of speech do not necessarily have the same meaning when used in different places in the Bible, even when said by the same person. For example, in the parable of the sower Jesus clearly states that the seed is "the word of God" (Luke 8:11). However, in Mark 4:31 the seed is the Kingdom of God.

    To prove your OT connection, you have to prove that the word "vine" in your OT references carries the same meaning as when Jesus used it in the parable of the vine.

    Glad you agree.

    So you think the disciples were not born again yet? I can't agree with that.

    Also, I don't see the connection you are making with the indwelling Holy Spirit here. Christ did not mention the Holy Spirit in John 15 until v. 26, so a connection with the parable of the vine is hard to see. Christ was not illustrating the Holy Spirit with His parable, but His relationship with His disciples.

    Nope. Can't see that in the text.

    I see the fruit as bearing another of the same kind; in other words, winning folk to Christ.

    I certainly don't see any connection with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You're stretching the parable beyond the original meaning, making it a source of doctrine, IMO.

    "A little long." Ya think? :Geek

    I agree that the disciples were not at that time abiding in Christ. But the thing about figures of speech is that they are illustrations, designed to help the hearer remember the point later. How often have you come away from a sermon with nothing in your head but the illustrations?
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Wasn't really looking for answers so much, just consideration of the concept presented. I will address a few things I see as relevant to understanding the concept.

    Thanks, for addressing what you did, though.


    Concerning the meaning of the vine, I think the quoted Scripture goes a long way to showing that Israel is the vine of the Old Testament, and by extension, we see that as a parable for relationship with God. So too, in John 15, we again see relationship with God as the primary element of the teaching.

    As to the second statement, we do not have within the text anything identifying the True Vine as anything but Christ, and believers being "in Him." Israel was the vine because they were chosen out of the world to be in relationship with God. Of course we have to distinguish between the physical/temporal aspects of the Old Testament as opposed to the eternal/spiritual aspects of relationship with God under New Covenant conditions and provision.


    I thought I did that, lol, but if you're not seeing it, then I did not do a good enough job bringing it across.

    Of course, I was trying to keep it short.

    ;)

    Let me just repost one of the quotes, and a short comment:


    Isaiah 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

    2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

    3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

    4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

    5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

    6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

    7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.


    Basically Israel is the vine, the Land the vineyard, and God is the Husbandman. The concept of "abiding" and not abiding is seen in their failure to produce fruit that they should have. Christ states the opposite of what is said here, He will prune, that the branches bring forth more fruit.

    Again, keep in mind that Christ states He is the "True Vine," so just as in the case of the Good Shepherd (contrasted with the wicked shepherd), the True Bread (contrasted with manna), the True Light (contrasted with darkness and the wisdom of men, John 1), the Door (contrasted with thieves and robbers), it stands to reason that there is a vine He is contrasting Himself with. Being the "True Vine" would make little sense unless there was a context in which to understand it by. And what better concept than that which would have been familiar to the Jews? Paul uses similar figurative language in Romans 11, where again, the "Tree" is best viewed, as I see it, as the provision afforded to men by God. This too speaks of relationship with God specific to Israel.

    And one thing I see that helps to understand the True Vine as relationship to God and His provision is understanding the prophetic nature of the teachings in John 14-16. The command to "abide" would not be obeyed until the disciples actually knew what it meant to abide in Christ, which was literally speaking of the indwelling of Christ which would take place after He returned to Heaven (John 16:7).

    Okay, again I don't think we can take this any further, so I will address the rest of the post and let this rest.


    Continued...
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Most don't, yet, being born again is a result of the indwelling of God. We are new creatures because we are, when we are eternally redeemed, eternally indwelt.

    Being born again holds the identical meaning as being born of God, born from above, and born of the Spirit.

    Men did not begin to be born of God until Christ came:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    Peter states we are born again according to the Resurrection of Christ:


    1 Peter 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



    Being born of God demands that one receive Christ.

    The primary argument offered that being born again took place prior to Pentecost (and ignores statements like those above) is "The Lord would not have told Nicodemus he must be born again if it couldn't take place." First, the Lord didn't say "Nicodemus you must be born again," He simply told Nicodemus that men must be born again. Sounds like a moot point but it isn't.

    Secondly, the Lord also told men they must believe on Him, and eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, but...no-one did. Not even the disciples. It would not be until the Spirit revealed the Gospel to them on the Day of Pentecost that they would preach the Gospel (be witnesses of Him, Acts 1:8) and men would begin to be born again through their preaching. On one of the few occasions Christ preached the Gospel of Christ (as opposed to the Gospel of the Kingdom), the Lord forbade them to tell any man He was the Christ (Matthew 16:20-23), and this right after the Father revealed to them that He was in fact the Christ, the Son of the Living God (not the same as knowing He is the Savior).

    But that is an issue that takes much consideration of numerous elements of Salvation in Christ, so that is all I will say in this thread on the topic.


    Continued...
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    His teaching in John 15 follows the most extensive teaching He gave in regards to the coming Spirit, the Comforter. We cannot forget that.

    So consider that His teaching concerning their "abiding" in Him follows His teaching that they would, one day in the future, be eternally indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:


    John 14:15-18; 22-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?


    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



    So we have this teaching which precedes His teaching on abiding in Him, and both speak of what is going to take place in the future.

    These men are not indwelt by Christ, and that would not happen until He was glorified:


    John 7:38-39
    King James Version (KJV)

    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



    Now, the figurative language here, that out of the bellies shall flow living water, is a statement of the Gospel being preached by those who are saved through Christ. They have received eternal life through the eternal indwelling of God, and had the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to them. And that is precisely what we see take place on the Day of Pentecost: they receive the promised Spirit, and immediately begin to preach Christ crucified. And at that time, unlike in the discussion with Nicodemus, the people have a context in which to understand what it means to "believe on Jesus Christ."


    Continued...
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Its the same thing, John. One does not have a relationship with God unless they have received the Spirit promised in the Old Testament:


    Romans 8:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.





    Apparently the quoting code got rearranged, so unfortunately I am not sure what it is you don't see.



    But we would see that as branches, not fruit. And only the True Vine can produce more branches.

    God is wholly Sovereign in who is saved, and while He may use believers, no believer has ever, since Pentecost, produced the first branch. This is accomplished through the Ministry of the Comforter, and is a one-on-one between God and the individual.


    But it is a source of Doctrine, in my view, as all of Christ's teachings are.

    To make this doctrine would be more like thinking we are literally branches, lol.

    The True Vine establishes what we are in, that is, in Christ.

    So there is a historical aspect I am trying to point out, in that this teaching holds relevance to the approaching time when ISrael would make a decision between Christ and the Law. The Disciples were not abiding at that time, and did not begin to abide in Christ until they were baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God, baptized into Christ).

    So the connection with the Holy Ghost is seen if we keep John 14-16 intact as a combined teaching.

    He again reiterates the importance of the coming of the Comforter in John 16, saying that it is needful for Him to go that the Comforter might come.


    Not really. It takes about two minuted to read.


    Continued...
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And the Lord makes that precise point:


    John 14:25-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    It is the Spirit that reminds Peter of the Lord's words in regards to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which he defines as the moment of salvation:


    Acts 11:13-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



    All of this, John, to show that the concept of the True Vine being the eternal reality of relationship with God as opposed to the creation of Israel and relationship to God, and provision.


    Not often. But I am very critical of sermons, and oftentimes the errors of the message have me analyzing the sermon and thinking about how it could have been better. I am currently seeking a new fellowship, as the fellowship I have been a member of has changed in recent years. So has the Pastor's preaching style, which once was very expository, but has become a wee bit too dramatic for my taste. He told me, when I asked him his view on "free will," that "God votes for you, Satan votes against you, and you cast the deciding vote," lol. Now it may be that's a standard answer to avoid theological discussions while standing in line for food at a Jamboree, but, there were simply too many issues we did not mutually agree to for me to continue there.

    All that to say that rather than having a focus on an illustration used, I tend to examine the points being made themselves.

    Okay, this will be all I have to say on this example of figurative language, and thanks for the comments.


    God bless.
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

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