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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    The circumstances in which we learn most are those which most expose our weaknesses. As a rule we are placed in circumstances which demand that which we are most defective in. We are set in such and such situations, not because we can handle them, or behave in them better than anyone else; but on the contrary, because we need to be invigorated by grace in the defects which they are fitted to expose. They disclose to us where we need grace, so that constantly we are failing where we are expected to excel. We are put there to cast us on the Lord, and to teach us that we can do nothing of ourselves.

    If we could excel there, we should glory in our success, but when we find that we are placed in the very circumstances that, perhaps, more that any others expose our weakness, we then see that we have no hope of being able to stand or succeed, unless we obtain grace to do so. I am not placed where I could excel most, but subjected to those difficulties in which I can best know my need of grace, and best learn dependence.

    If I could get on without grace, I should grow elated with myself. But when I find that unless the Lord maintains me I shall surely fail, then I am humbled as to myself while at the same time deepened in dependence which the demand of my circumstances has, in a way, forced on me; and having learned the blessing of dependence, instead of regretting the difficulties which made it necessary to seek help, I am the more cheered and encouraged to go on in them.

    For learning or service everyone is placed where there is demand on him. The boy at school is not in the easy circumstances of home or the playground. The horse in a harness is not in the ease of being in the stable or at the grass.

    The situations we are subjected to are the ones in which we can best learn and be most useful. It is not because we have nothing to learn or nothing to do for others. If we had naught to learn, there would be no difficulty in the lessons required of us every day. The fact that there is difficulty in them proves that we are not proficient, and that it is necessary that we should be subjected to that which discloses to us what we require to learn, or to draw from us what we can render.

    Your weakness is exposed that you may acquire strength, and having received of the Lord, you will then be called on to render unto others—to comfort others, as you have been comforted of God; so that whether learner or servant, you are always set in circumstances where there is exaction, and not ease. If the learner were to keep at the same lesson always he might feel his difficulty is over, but so would his learning be over.

    Are you learning? Are you useful? Whenever you are either, you will find that you are in exacting circumstances, and therefore not those where you are most at home and at your ease; but the more you turn them to profit, the more you are learning of grace, and the more useful you are in sharing what you have acquired.

    - J B Stoney



    MJS devotional excerpt for Sep. 12:
    "The Scriptures tell me what the Father gives me, but they do not give it to me. The Spirit applies the Word to me in its divine meaning, and then I possess what Scripture tells me is mine through God’s grace. For instance, the Word tells me that if I behold the Lord’s glory I shall be transformed. It doesn’t transform me, however clearly I may see what it states. It communicates to me a very great thing, but it is the Spirit who makes it experiential to me." -J.B.S.
    http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
     
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 10

    6Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”8We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9We must not put Christc to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.12Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


    The reason you sin is not because you are grace deficient the reason you sin is because it is our own fault.

    There is no obstacle preventing you from doing the right thing always now and forever other then yourself.

    God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


    Actual humility is humiliating rather then paying up a show of false humility by letting everyone know your not a proud person. Its very deceptive when a proud person can't come to grips of what he is.....its too humiliating, so he acts humble, but really isn't.

    All this false humility sells i'm a toad, i am trash, i am defective, i can't do anything, my heart is twisted, my mind is broke, I can't do anything right, God ,because you chose to create a creature who can't do anything right when you created me. I lack Lord, I lack grace, I lack love from you. I am missing things, God when will you help me?

    I am perfectly made, You provided all things, Sustained me in every way, I sinned because it is MY FAULT, I acted in evil alone, I turned away from you my Father, you did not deserve that, you have only done good to me, I am so sorry.
     
  3. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    Hi U, always appreciate your replies and comments! I see those passages referring to those who had yet to trust (faith) God and thus were used as examples of unbelievers, even though they partook of the same provisions as the believers.

    I believe the issue is not sinning but possessing the sin nature, because this is where the evil originates. Even if one could live without sinning (an impossibility of course) the guilt would yet remain due to the sin nature (old man). The sinning merely manifests this nature, and those in Christ are kept from the desire of sinning, which is where the incurred guilt rests. Hence we are not in this nature (Rom 8:9) but it is in us and some of its affects are still unavoidable, but never the believer's desire due to the new nature and the Spirit.

    God always has the believer prepared to endure the difficulties that arise from our hatred for that which we do in our old nature.

    I would relate this only to those not born again, and some of it temporarily to immature believers whom the Spirit is always teaching to progress unto maturity.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Anything without God's grace would automatically sin regardless of having a "sin nature" or not.

    Without God's presence I don't even believe you could survive your next heart beat or breathe.

    This line here: God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

    That means you have no physical mechanic or spiritual mechanic that prevents you from not sinning.

    Even greater scripture says you can surpass and endure the temptation all together.

    "he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability"

    So I don't see any excuse to point back to a "defect". In fact if you had no defects at all without God's grace you would automatically fail correct?

    There is a difference between saying:

    Sorry Lord, you gave me a defective brain, a defective heart.

    and

    Sorry Lord, it is my fault.
     
  5. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    Actuality shows that Christians still have the sin nature, which means sinning will continue to be inevitable. Not sure what you're alluding to, but as I stated it's the nature that incurs guilt of sin, not the sinning. Unless we're discussing different issues.

    Not sure of you're meaning concerning "God's presence."

    The "temptation" usage here in 1 Co 10:13 is in reference to difficulties, not the desire for doing evil. To me this means that every hardness (i.e. discouragement, distress, etc.) believers encounter will never exceed their maturity level of endurance, because God ensures it by already having prepared you for it.
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That an incredible stretch to "temptation". But that still does not work for you.

    Which temptation to sin is not a discouragement or a distress? Indeed they all are, they are only a perk from a selfish point of view.

    Which discouragement from keeping with God would not qualify as a temptation?

    Come on now.

    When Jesus prays on our behalf Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, do you think his prayer went through? Acknowledged by God?

    Prior to the verse:
    8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

    Its a warning to take heed and look at those destroyed and fallen it wasn't to mere difficulties or this 2nd class temptation...... no they were destroyed.


    Look after the verse:

    14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.


    What does "therefore" have to do a discouragement not based on "desire for doing evil"?

    He tells you right there FLEE FROM IDOLATRY! Its PLAIN OBVIOUS, This is about the temptation for doing evil.

    Why would that definition be a problem for people?


    Because they want to blame GOD for their short comings. They want to say Oh its my "sin nature", God never fixed me, It is God's fault I sin.

    Nothing natural about sin. SIN is UNNATURAL.
     
  7. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    Below is a good example to what I'm referring.

    James 1:12; 'peirasmos' Strong's G3986

    James 1:13; 'peirazō' G3985

     
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 4:1
    τοῦ πνεύματος πειρασθῆναι ὑπὸ τοῦ


    1 Corinthians 10

    ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ


    Are you going to tell me that When Jesus went to the wilderness it had nothing to do with the most quintessential, exemplary understanding of the word temptation?

    Matthew 4:1

    1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.


    Same word, And the subject surrounding 1 Corinthians 10 verse is the same subject.


    You can at least admit how something like that would be confusing to me. Its quite strange the word of God fails in clarity here.

    Perhaps it can help to explain how failure without leading to sin in the sense of hardship is possible.

    That is how can someone not sin and still fail "difficulties". Or better explain how the classic understanding of temptation does not qualify as a "difficulty" beyond or within our ability.

    You said "not the desire for doing evil" But even the desire to do evil is a "difficulties"


    In your first response of 1 Corinthians 10:
    "God always has the believer prepared to endure the difficulties that arise from our hatred for that which we do in our old nature."

    I agree more with your first response of 1 Corinthians 10.
     
  9. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Well-Known Member
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    It depends on what the word "tempt" means in this passage. There are two usages of the same word (tempt). Tempt can mean "to test" or "to entice." Since Jesus cannot possess the temptation to do evil (Jam 1:13), He was being tested.

    You made an instructional point here, in that Scripture can often obscure meaning due to the way it can read. This is as you've shared, often confusing to the believer during Bible study.

    I've come to understand that these difficulties cause us to increasingly depend on the Spirit's teaching, by being patient in awaiting understanding while continuing Biblical studies.

    Concerning sinning, I believe the outcome of all that a believer does is good and not evil. Though occasionally our methods and messages will be old-man-derived (from the sinful nature), the final intention is what determines evaluation, in which the majority of our "desires" will always be God-centered (Phl 2:13).

    When the believer sins, it's with the nature in which he is no longer after (Rom 8:9), and its with his new nature ("seed" - 1 Jhn 3:9) he lives apart from sin. "So then, with the mind I (with my new nature) myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (with my old nature) the law of sin" (Rom 7:25).

    The "I" in this passage is all that God regards, thus we need no to allow our old nature to trouble us (Jhn 14:1). The sins of an unbeliever are not against his will and therefore is not as a captive but are a subject of being dominated, because they desire to sin. Believers sin against their will and therefore are subjects of being free from the desire to sin (Rom 7:23). The greatest test and application of faith concerning our sin is trusting in Christ's expiation for it--esp. in spite of "the sin that dwelleth in me (Rom 7:17, 20).

    Love You Brother! Thanks for your Word-inspiring replies, and for being patient with my replies!
     
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