1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Neither Arminianism nor Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 24, 2019.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,570
    Likes Received:
    22
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Gal 3:6-9 NASB 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
    13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
    14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

    We inherit the righteousness given to Abraham. This was Christ's righteousness. He became a curse for us and gave up his righteousness.

    2Co 5:21 NASB 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Hebrews 1:4
    having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

    Hebrews 13:20
    Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

    Jesus himself was raised from the dead through Abraham's eternal covenant. He proved it was valid. He gave up his righteousness to Abraham and inherited back through inheritance by being a faithful descendant of Abraham. Remember what the eternal covenant is:

    Gen 17:7 NASB] 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​

    But remember, Paul says these word "decendant" (or "seed" in the KJV) was actually referring to Christ:

    Gal 3:16 NASB 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

    Paul explicitly makes reference to the fact that Jesus was the one to whom the promise was being made:

    Gal 3:19 NASB 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

    This begs the question... why would God need to make a promise to Christ that he would be resurrected for faith (for it says until the seed would come to whom the promise was made)? Because as Hebrews 13:20 says above, Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead, but God raised him from the dead through Abraham's covenant. This is why it was a "credit" to Abraham until Christ came and actually lived a righteous life according to the law and had righteousness to give up.

    Now that Christ has come, we have more detail and we can declare he was the promised One to whom the gospel that was preached to Abraham talked about. Now that He has come, we believe a more specific gospel, but what Abraham believed was still the same gospel (albeit with less revelation than we have now). We become children of God and descendants of Abraham by believing the same Gospel that Abraham believed (granted, we know more of the details now). Yet Jesus himself said, "your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad" confirming Abraham did indeed have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Offering Isaac on the altar wasn't what made Abraham righteous... it was a demonstration of the faith he already had... a faith he was made righteous for more than 2 decades prior to offering Isaac on the altar. Works demonstrates that faith is valid... but faith alone saves (makes righteous).

    I use this analogy: if a car is speeding towards me, and I say "the car will not hit me" but then at the last moment I dive out of the way, my actions demonstrated that I actually DID believe the car would hit me. So my works demonstrate my true belief. In the same way faith without works is dead. Works demonstrate our true faith, but faith alone is what qualifies us as descendants of Abraham and inheritors of Christ's righteousness.

    Eph 1:13-14 NASB 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

    Notice how the Holy Spirit's indwelling is the "seal of the righteousness of faith." Abraham experienced the same seal in circumcision.

    Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,​

    So the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "circumcision of the heart." It intentionally follows the exact pattern of Abraham's salvation.

    Galatians 3:7
    Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.


    Galatians 3:26
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.


    Galatians 3:29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


    Galatians 4:30
    But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”


    Romans 9:6
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


    Hebrews 2:16
    For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.


    Luke 19:9
    And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.


    Isaiah 54:1
    “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

     
  2. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,570
    Likes Received:
    22
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Are all of the nations of the earth blessed through Abraham because of Christ and the Cross? Yes. Therefore, the statement "all the nations of the earth will be blessed in you" is inclusive of the Cross. It is inclusive of the full gospel... God knew what He meant by this, but Abraham didn't. So which is more important -- faith in the gospel or understanding of the gospel?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How can one really have faith in what one does not correctly understand? It is written, ". . . if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." Remember not every one who calls Jesus Lord are Christ's, Matthew 7:21.

    It is must be accepted as an unmerited gift.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Genesis 12:7, ". . . And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ."
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    45,489
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have no idea what you think you are telling me
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not think we disagree here. All appearances of God in the OT are none other than the preincarnate Son of God. John 1:18. John 8:56, -Genesis 12:7.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,570
    Likes Received:
    22
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yet the Bible says time and time again Abraham was made righteous for his faith... and we know that it was faith in the gospel of Christ according to Gal 3:8, 16. He knew next to nothing compared to those who came after him and had the benefit of The Law and the prophets to tell them (and us) about Christ... or the New Testament to give us eye witness accounts of Christ and the cross.

    Mat 7:21 NASB 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.]

    Rom 14:11 NASB 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."​

    Recognizing Christ's power and authority is not the same as having faith in the gospel. The scripture says that every knee will bow to Christ and call him Lord. This is not the same as faith in the gospel, and will not save them. Yet the scripture also says of those with faith:

    Rom 10:5-13 NASB 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

    So while recognizing God's Lordship will not save, believing the gospel will ALWAYS save (make righteous). Why? Because that was God's covenant of faith with Abraham, and God keeps His promises.

    Deuteronomy 30 tells us we can choose to accept that gift. We can choose to inherit the blessing of Abraham.

    Deu 30:1
    “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
    6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
    11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
    14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
    15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
    19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
    20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

    Gen 17:7-8 NASB
    7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."​

    The choice God sets before us in Deuteronomy 30 directly relates to God's covenant of faith with Abraham. The land is the "promised land" or "eternal life." The way we choose it is the same way Abraham chose it... have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Did it ever occur to you that Moses was not allowed in to the Promised Land as a demonstration that The Law would never save us, yet Moses successor - Joshua -- the same word as Yeshua -- was able to lead them into the promised land?

    Neh 9:7-8 NASB 7 "You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. 8 "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give [him] the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give [it] to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.​

    How and why does God choose those who are saved? Because He is keeping his promise, covenant, or oath to Abraham. God chose the group "the descendants of Abraham" and that group has open enrollment based on whether or not you have the same faith in the gospel of Christ that Abraham had. We know the descendants of Abraham are the Chosen people... we've always known this about the Jews... but we replaced the truth of Genesis 17 and Isaiah 54:1 and Romans 4 and Gal 3 that Abraham was the father of many nations with the lie that he was only the father of one nation, the Jews.
     
    #107 Gup20, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...