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New Calvinist Paradigm?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Aug 21, 2006.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Hey fellow Baptists!

    I'm in a discussion on another board with Calvinists, Lutherans, Reform -- all those guys that take all or parts of the TULIP very seriously. And I must say, I have found much to applaud them on despite my free will perspecitive. For instance, I now believe that "faith" and even "repentance" are GIVEN by God -- they do not originate in men.

    However, I believe I have found more biblical support for a more amenable paradigm that free will and Calvinist can share. I would invite your comments. I find that Calvinists over there are often very strict in their interpretations and will not see any part for man in salvation despite scriptural invitation to "whosoever will."

    Here's how I "parallel" the 2 views:

    I believe that step #1 in salvation is biblical "hearing" --- the same thing as what Calcvinists call "drawing." John 12:32. "ALL men" can "hear!

    I believe that the the Spirit works on 3 levels in salvation: 1) the Spirit is in the word of God "drawing" the unbeliever. 2) He "fills" the believer of the word thereby "calling" him effecaciously and irresistibly. 3) Upon repentance (in which the believer obeys the "filling" of the Spirit) the Holy Spirit "ndwells"/"egenerates"/causes the "new birth.

    Thus, step #2 is "belief." Hearing and believing are man's part in salvation. Neither is a "work," Rom 4:5 as Calvinists are so wont to avoid. Hearing and believing are enabled by the Holy Spirit (one guy over there says we are not "free will" but "enabled will" believers). :thumbs:

    Step #3 is "repentance" toward God or Christ (the distinction is significant as I'll show momentarily). Once the sinner believes, he/she is FILLED -- mind, emotions, and will are temporarily controlled -- by the Holy Spirit resulting in a) repentance or b) asking "What must I DO." (Acts 2) followed by repentance.

    Step #4 is the believer receives "faith" -- God's work! And here's where this paradigm actually helps the Calvinist! See, OT saints were "filled" with the Holy Spirit but they were never "indwelt," John 16:7. Why weren't they? Because they await the "resurrection of the just" postrib to the earth to "see"/"hear" Jesus and receive the indwelling Spirit and the "gifts" of the Spirit.

    Step #5 for the NT believer is the receiving from God (His work) of the "indwelling" of the Spirit unto the "new birth"/"regeneration"/"born again"/"new life in Christ" and spiritual gifts. We call this "sanctification" of the saint. Again, the OT saints come under sanctification in the MK.

    Any comments? I believe that Calvinism was "Provisional Theology" much as Darwin called his Theory of Evolution "Provisional Science" --- both were acceptable until a better paradigm was given. :thumbs:

    God bless

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Aug 21, 2006
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    So, when the Lord said to preach "repent ye" the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, He was just rambling on and on? Instead of putting repentance in them He said for them to repent but He really didn't mean it, is that what you went down and let the Calvinist teach you? :laugh: :laugh:
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Aug 21, 2006
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I agree with much of your post except for this. The ability to have faith and repent are instilled within ALL men, in the same sense all men can "hear", as you stated.
     
    #3 webdog, Aug 21, 2006
  4. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Let's change that to John 3:16's "whosoever believes", which still has the word "whosoever" in it, and you should be able to see that this "invitation" has nothing to do with man's will.

    As you stated above, faith is GIVEN by God. It does not originate in man. Therefore when John says "whosever believes", he is simply identifying those people who -- thanks ONLY to the grace of God -- believe. This same concept applies to "whosever will". It refers to those who will, and their will to come has its origin in God, not in man.
     
    #4 npetreley, Aug 21, 2006
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Then tell me what all of the unregenerate bungee jumpers rely on...
     
    #5 webdog, Aug 21, 2006
  6. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Elastic:smilewinkgrin:
     
    #6 reformedbeliever, Aug 21, 2006
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    :laugh: :thumbsup:
     
    #7 webdog, Aug 21, 2006
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Isaiah, chapter 45

    "22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
     
    #8 Brother Bob, Aug 21, 2006
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    That's a good one.

    My point is simply that ANY invitation (or command, for that matter), taken ALONE, no matter where you find it in the Bible, doesn't tell you anything about why some people respond and others don't. "Whosoever will" just says "whoever is willing". The statement (taken ALONE) supports NEITHER Calvinism NOR free-willism. It says nothing about WHY one person is willing and WHY another is not.

    It's like saying "whosoever will, let him come and eat this free pizza". That doesn't tell you why one person wants pizza and another hates it and doesn't want it. It just says that if you want pizza, it's free to anyone who wants it. If you want the answer to the question of why one person wants pizza and another doesn't, you have to look elsewhere -- genetics? Upbringing? Whatever.

    The same goes for "whosoever believes" and "whosoever will" in the Bible. It tells you that whoever believes, whoever wills, then X (fill in the Biblical blank). If you want to know WHY one person believes and another does not, or why one person wills and another does not, you have to look elsewhere in the Bible.
     
    #9 npetreley, Aug 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2006
  10. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    There is a difference between saving faith (the faith that brings salvation) and temporal, everyday faith, like faith in a bungee cord or sitting on a chair.
     
    #10 Andy T., Aug 21, 2006
  11. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    The "will" to come and the "will" to stay is the same. I'll explain. God had to "drive" Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. They did not want to leave. They had the "will" to remain. That means they did not want to be separated from God. They did not want to leave the place that they knew God dwelt. They talked to God there. They walked with God there. They heard His voice, knew His presence and dwelt with Him in the garden. Their "will" to choose and want God was still alive and well. They were choosing God by having a "will" to stay.

    Thanks Bartimaeus/KY/Look Away!
     
    #11 Bartimaeus, Aug 21, 2006
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Well, there CAN be a difference. One person could place their faith in the elastic. The other could place their faith in God's ability and willingness to make sure the elastic doesn't break, no matter what the condition of the bungee cord. But that's just picking nits, and I apologize for feeling compelled to pick 'em. ;)
     
    #12 npetreley, Aug 21, 2006
  13. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Well, yes, I was thinking of terms that every person has temporal faith, like when they sit in a chair or start a car. But not everyone has saving faith, a gift from God.
     
    #13 Andy T., Aug 21, 2006
  14. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I know. I just couldn't resist. Sorry! ;)
     
    #14 npetreley, Aug 21, 2006
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The Bible doesn't separate the two, nor should we. Faith is faith, period. There's faith in objects, people and circumstances...and that same faith in Christ is what saves us.
     
    #15 webdog, Aug 21, 2006
  16. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    James 2 talks about two different kinds of faith - dead faith v. saving faith. So there at least two kinds of faith.

    Regardless, your attempt to show that because an unbeliever bungee jumps and has 'faith' in the cord proves that everyone is capable of justifying faith is a stretch. Faith in a cord is not the same as faith in God.
     
    #16 Andy T., Aug 21, 2006
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Same faith but different circumstances, and at different times.
    It's not a stretch. It's more of a stretch to say that man has to be given this mystical "saving faith" to use. Likewise...you cannot prove that the "faith" in a bungee cord is not the same faith we have in Christ.
     
    #17 webdog, Aug 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2006
  18. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Same faith? So the demons (2:19) have the same faith as one who is saved?
     
    #18 Andy T., Aug 21, 2006
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    In the 22 translations I have, James 2:19 does not mention faith at all. Believe and faith are not the same.
     
    #19 webdog, Aug 21, 2006
  20. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    1) Christ did not die on the cross to save demons.
    2) Belief in the fact that there is one God does not save anybody.
    3) If I have faith in the ability of a ladder to get me on the roof, I am not going to get on the roof unless I climb the ladder.
     
    #20 Blammo, Aug 21, 2006
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