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News: Yemen: Muslim Extremists Kills 3 Baptist American Doctors

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Dec 30, 2002.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The idea that Islam was spread through war is a myth. Although the Arabs conquered a large area of the world immediately after the rise of Islam, this does not mean that Islam was forcibly spread through war. The first wars entered into were against Persia and the Roman empire, the two super-powers of the day who were vying for control. These battles were entered into in self-defense to prevent these powers from snuffing out the new Islamic nation. The spread of the Arab conquest was made easier by the fact that many of the peoples of the area were suffering under Persian and Roman oppression and actually welcomed the Arabs with open arms. Once the conquest gained momentum and power, it spread. When Islamic rule was established in a new territory, many of the existing occupants continued to practice their religion. The Quran clearly prohibits coercion in matters of faith and as a result, there were no wholesale forced conversions. Instead, the populations of these areas converted to Islam gradually and voluntarily over a period of decades rather than years. Today, non-Muslim minorities survive and thrive all over the Muslim world, which would not have been possible if their ancestors had been forced to convert to Islam. Historically, interactions through travel and trade have been the greatest factor contributing to the spread of Islam.

    As far as the Quran and terrorism, the Quran clearly prohibits killing. The Quran says that the sin of killing a single soul is equivalent to killing the whole of mankind. Muslims are only allowed to make war in self-defense or in a just cause. Senseless or unprovoked aggression is totally forbidden. The Quran does allow for wartime defense, however, killing women, children, the elderly and the unarmed is again totally forbidden. The rights of prisoners of war were set down by Islamic law long before the Geneva convention.

    While so-called Muslims from various radical groups have committed acts of terrorism in recent times, culminating in the horror of September 11th, the vast majority of Muslims condemn these acts and consider such terrorists beyond the Muslim pale. Unfortunately, in the media, whenever a Muslim commits a heinous act, he is labeled a "Muslim terrorist". However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U.S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists".

    While I would like to cite quotes from the Quran to support this position, I have been forbidden by the moderators from putting up any posts that contain quotes from the Quran, and that any posts of mine that contain such quotes will be deleted.

    [ December 30, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  2. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Just one example, the Serbs slaughtered many Muslims in Bosnia within the last decade. (I realize that you put a limit of 5 years on your "game", but that is hardly a fair limitation since Christians have had a long history of attacking Muslims dating back to the Crusades.
     
  3. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Actually, BB, that was the example I was thinking about (referred to earlier). BTW, it is not my "game," it is John's. He made some statements & I have challenged him. Except he doesn't seem to be up to the challenge with these straw men he's posting. [​IMG]
     
  4. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    You are changing the subject. Please see my closing statement below.***

    Here's your original statement:
    My original challenge for you to back up your statement:

    Johnv: No answer.

    My next challenge:

    Johnv: Changes the subject.

    My next challenge:

    Johnv: Comes up with "FBI" stats & no link. (Doesn't include all the murdered unborn babies in hate crimes stats, though.) Also provides generalized rhetoric about Islamic history & again, no credible historical links to verify statements.

    BB: Comes up with Bosnia (which I had in mind).

    This thread will be closed when the 3rd page rolls over as per the regulations of this Current News Forum.

    As of yet, Johnv, I am still awaiting some links which back up your original statements.

    ***As far as civil rights in the US history, that doesn't have anything to do with this topic. But if you really want to get "testy" I was born in 1949; I lived it. You've only read about it. ;) [​IMG]
     
  5. InHim2002

    InHim2002 New Member

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    bosnia is a very good example:

    source

    no religion, sadly, has a monopoly on tyranny or terrorism.

    what do you have to say about the terror that 'christians' inflicted in the former yugoslavia?

    [ December 30, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]
     
  6. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    Thank you for remembering.

    Murph
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I didn't get my FBI stats off the internet, I got them off printed page. There is still such thing as pen and paper, isn't there?

    You're accusing me of coming up empty handed, but still, you have yet to even recognize the treatment of Bosnian serbs as an atocity. Instead, you sluff it off with the attitude "oh, they weren't really Christians any way". For the record, Opression of Muslims was something that was historically documented for well over 1000 years. So if Muslims have anger toward Chrstians, can it be blamed? Yet, the excuse for past CHristian atrocities seems to be one of a Janet Jackson song "what have you done for me lately". Still, Muslims Americans are generally neigher anti Christian nor anti American.

    As for your request for Muslim web sites, I will not do so unless expressly allowed by a moderator, out of respect for their guidelines. However, I did a web engine search, and came up with several Muslim sites that are pro-US and anti-violence.

    To be fair, my family was held in ww2 concentration camps in Indonesia because they thought we were Muslims. After WW2, my family was placed in another camp because we were Christian.

    Because of my mixed race features, I've was singled out in my community growing up, so I'm well aware of how the local Christian commuity saw me, until I was a teenager. While it was nothing compared to the opression of Dr ML King's days, to assume I've only "read about it" is ridiculous. As a child in the 70's I saw first hand the damage that was done to my mixed race friends.

    I would no more blame American Muslims for injustices done
     
  8. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy New Member

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    Hello John,

    There is one big problem with the FBI info that you are using. Most Americans, when interviewed, will claim to be Christians. They will say that they are Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists or whatever denomination that they know their family has been connected to in the past. This fact has been well documented by Finkey (Sp?) and Stark in their book entitled, The Churching of America. Official U.S. Census data, where people claim to be Christians of specific denominations, which greatly outnumbers actual church membership records for the same time period backs up their findings.

    So the FBI data that you are using has the potential to be really really really wrong. The majority of the people recorded in the FBI data may never have even been inside a church during their lifetime much less have actually accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Likewise, I would be willing to venture a guess that the FBI data also includes non-Christian Mormon and JW cult members in its "Christian" category. Hence, the FBI data does not reflect an accurate picture of Christianity in the U.S.

    Furthermore, it does not matter if certain U.S. Muslims claim that other International Muslim Extremists do not reflect the "true" teachings of Islam. The point is that the Quran does teach that Muslims are to slay the infidels where they find them and that the infidel shall die by the sword. Biblical Christianity has no such teachings. That is only one of the primary differences between the two religions.

    How long will you ignore the testimony of former U.S. Muslims who have gotten saved (become Christians), and say that they were taught in Mosques here in the U.S. to hate Christians, Jews, and those of other world religions? See Unveiling Islam by the Caner brothers. Likewise, how can you ignore that Washington Post article quoted in a post above that indicates the same thing?

    I think rather than disputing over who can produce the most references to cases of violence carried out by Muslims or Christians it would be better for you to attempt to explain the very real contradictions between the idea of "Islam the religion of peace" and the passages of the Quran that instruct its followers to kill the infidel. If the moderators do not want you to defend Islam using the Quran in the Baptist Only section of the website you can start a new thread in the "Other Religions" section and let the rest of us know about it. [​IMG]
     
  9. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    Excellent idea Bible boy I hope John will take you up on it.
    Murph
     
  10. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    You are still empty handed. Baptist Believer brought up the subject of Bosnia (the example I was thinking of). You didn't. By the way, it was those HATED Americans, along with coalition forces, who helped FREE the oppressed Muslims in Bosnia / Kosovo. You know, our Brave Young AMERICAN (some Christian & Jewish, too!) men & women of the military, those hated kuffar (!) who helped free the Muslim oppressed, wearing those blue UN peacekeeping helmets, feeding the starving....CONVENIENTLY overlooked, I might add.
    Where did I say or imply that?

    Authentic historical links, please. (Oppression of Jews has been going on much longer than that, yet they don't seem to have schools in the US teaching to kill Christians, Americans, and Muslims! :rolleyes: )

    Yes, if Islam is the "peaceful" religion it is claimed by some (including you) to be.

    Perhaps all that anger explains the hundreds of Islamic fundamentalist schools throughout the US teaching hatred & killing of Christians, Americans, & Jews (kuffar)? You have yet to cite one credible source showing hundreds of Christian schools in the US which teach to kill Muslims.

    You are still empty handed. Quoting the Quran has nothing to do with providing credible links, my friend. [​IMG]

    [ December 31, 2002, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: SheEagle9/11 ]
     
  11. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    WHAT? That seems like a good way to promote clear and frank discussion. :rolleyes:

    Joshua
     
  12. jonmagee

    jonmagee New Member

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    While I will denounce any act of violence from whatever direction, I am surprised that some of you who have participated in this board can claim Christians today are neccessarily innocent. I have been involved with this board since october and, quite frankly, have been shocked at how some of our members have used language which if read by muslims would legitimately be understood to be inciting violence. Lets condemn the violence such as what has happened in the Yemen, but let us balance that also by uniting to clean up the board when inappropriate posts are inserted.

    yours, Jon.
     
  13. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    It is no myth that Islam was spread through the sword and it is revisionist history to say otherwise. The religion was not spread as early Christianity through peaceful means. Trying to turn it into a Peaceful Buddhist type religion reminds me of how J. M. Carroll in THE TRAIL OF BLOOD tried to make every heretical group in the Middle Ages to be Baptists. :rolleyes: The quotations from the Islamic Imans I cited shows it is orthodox for Islam.

    Peacefull Islam is the exception not the norm. Wherever Islam is the most prominent, the religious minorities are oppressed. That is fact not a myth. Just a visit to these websites show how that "peaceful" :rolleyes: religion oppresses Christianity wherever it is most prominent

    Persecution of Christians in Egypt http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/world/egy1.htm

    A site by members of the Egyptian Coptic Church describing what it's like to live under Islam http://www.copts.net/index.asp

    Visit the Serbian Orthodox Church's website which describes the unreported persecution they have suffered from Muslims http://www.kosovo.com/crucified/default.htm

    Persecution of Christians in Sudan http://www.persecution.org/concern/2002/03/p3.html

    History of the Persecution of Eastern Christianity under Islam http://www.members.tripod.com/joe_matalski/

    Persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia http://www.persecution.org/humanrights/saudi_arabia.html

    Iranian Christians International http://www.farsinet.com/ici/who.html

    In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust, Greek Orthodox Church description of their martyrs to Islam http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

    Persecution of Christians in Chechnya.
    http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/2_16/pages/chechnya.html
     
  14. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Well, Johnv join the club [​IMG] I cited quotes from the Quran that showed it does support violence against Christians and they were deleted...but hey we don't own the forum so I don't quess I can complain. I did however cite several Imans from the Middle East calling for the deaths of Christian and Jews. Maybe since Islam is so peaceful you could supply similar quotes from Middle Eastern Imans calling for Muslims to love their Christian and Jewish friends.
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Maybe since Islam is so peaceful you could supply similar quotes from Middle Eastern Imans calling for Muslims to love their Christian and Jewish friends.

    I had posted some a while back, post 9-11. I will try to find them. Alas, my time will be short over the next few days, so if you don't see me here, I'm probably celebrating the New Year [​IMG]

    I'm thankful, though, for being able to have a healthy discussion with you regarding Islam.

    Happy New Year, everyone. See ya in 2003.
     
  16. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    And as this thread has gone to a third page, I am giving the six hour warning. Either Murph or I will close this thread No Earlier Than 620p EST/Board Time.
     
  17. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Good. Praise Be! :D
     
  18. jonmagee

    jonmagee New Member

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    To finally bring the topic on line.

    1)Our hearts, I am sure are aching for those who have suffered in this tragedy.

    2)Our prayers are for the families who continue to suffer.

    3)Our thanks go to the love of God that motivated these Christian brothers/sisters to share His love even to the Muslims.

    yours, Jon.
     
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