No condemnation in Christ Jesus !

No need - DT has already done this for you. Now please do him the courtesy of answering the question.

 

And hurling other proof-texts around validly expounds Jn 3:36 how, exactly?

 

John 3:36 and John 3:16 must be explained by John 3:8. <G>

 

Originally posted 7/12/2011.

And now what date is it?
How long does it take you to answer a simple question SBM?
Or is it that you cannot?

 

:thumbs: (Sitting here tapping fingers on desk!)

 

>I believe in orthodox historic Christianity

The historical Orthodox-Catholic Church?

 

In my opinion all parties invovled here are wrong. SBM takes a truth to the extreme and thus makes it a false doctrine while the other side is equally wrong.

None of the scriptures used by SBM support his false theory that those chosen in Christ before the world began (Eph. 1:4) were prior to their actual existence justified and not under condemnation. He confuses God's PURPOSE with REALITY. According to God's PLAN, a plan not yet applied in time and space they were PURPOSED complete glorification. However, who would be foolish enough to argue they were actually in fact already glorified before they were born and never were sinners! That is what one must argue to argue they never were condemned in Christ before the world began! It is a stupid argument.

On the other hand, it is just as rediculous to deny there were those "chosen in him BEFORE" the foundation of the world, chosen unto salvation, chosen through setting apart by the Holy Spirit in order to be made holy, in order to believe the gospel truth (2 Thes. 2:13-14; Acts 13:48).

John 3:36 does not contradict either. John 3:18 states that all who come into this world are CONDEMNED ALREADY because they come in as unbeleivers and they come in therefore under the wrath of God. There is wrath where there is condemnation and only where there is no condemnation is there no wrath. The ones chosen before the foundation of the world are chosen to come to belief in Christ thus an admission they are in unbelief until the precise time they are seperated unto truth of the gospel by the Holy Spirit (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14).

In my opinion one side is as wrong as the other as both sides deny Biblical truth. One side denies the clearly stated Biblical doctrine of election before the world began, election UNTO salvation not BECAUSE of salvation UNTO holiness not BECAUSE of holiness UNTO beleif in the truth of the gospel not BECAUSE of belief in the truth of the gospel.

The other side is simply what has been known as HYPER-Calvinism which is just as erroneous. They are not already SAVED (justified, called, regenerated, glorified) before the world began but merey SET APART by divine PURPOSE (choice) to be saved in time and space.

 

No one comes into the world as a believer in Christ!!! That is precisely why Jesus says they are "already" condemned as all come into the world as unbelievers and it is the unbeliever that is condemned. For your argument to be true you must prove that some come into the world as believers already and therefore not condemned. Good luck trying to prove that from scripture!

The Greek text uses two present tense terms not a past tense term as you demand. So your statement "have already everlasting life" contradicts the language being used by John. Everlasting life is concurrent with believing and the tenses prove this. "Hath" translates a present tense verb. "Beleiveth" translates a present tense participle. Therefore your interpretation is WRONG!

Furthermore, you are wrong on your second interpretation. John uses the present tense again "believing not" and the future tense in "shall not see life" which only proves that as long as one continues in unbelief they "shall not" future tense see life not that they are reprobates that can never be saved. You are WRONG again and must PERVERT the Word of God to defend your error.

Another perverted interpretation. Paul's point is not that the elect were never condemned when in sin, when in unbelief, when enemies (all of which demand they were condemned under sin and the proof is that they die) but rather the "death" of Christ preceded the readers obedience to gospel. The "death" of Christ preceded in time the conversion of those at Rome he is addressing. However, the "death" of Christ did not precede the saints living before the incarnation of Christ (Acts 10:43) and their conversion to the gospel. We were reconciled to God by Christs "death" and His "death" occurred in time and space not in eternity past.

You cannot reconcile friends only enemies and an UNCONDEMNED enemy does not need the "death" of Christ to be reconciled as the "death" of Christ is CONDEMNATION by substitution. Only the CONDEMNED need substitutionary death as no UNCONDEMNED person needs a substitute death and no one can deny that "death" is CONDEMNATION due to sin.

Your theory is bankrupt and you must distort scripture, ignore the contextual factors of the texts you take and use and abuse.

 

Try a little honesty with the evidence put before you! I pointed out that your past tense translation, which is the support of your interpretation of John 3:36 is completely erroneous as the text uses present tenses not past tenses. The future tense has reference to the continuous present tense condition of unbelief of which ALL MANKIND come into this world and so long as they CONTINUE in that state they "shall not" have eternal life. Try a little honesty!

Try a little honesty with the evidence placed before you in regard to John 3:17.

Try a little honesty with the evidence placed before in regard to Rom. 5. It is his "death" and his "death" did not occur before the world began. His death occurred in space and time.

Try a little honesty with the evidence placed before in regard to 2 Cor. 5:19. The "cross" did not occur before the world began but it occurred in time and space. The cross is proof that the elect were under condemnation of sin and were "condemned already" coming into this world by first birth because they came in in "unbelief" and it is all who are PRESENT TENSE in unbelief who are "condemned."

Try a little honesty with the evidence placed before you in regard to justification. We are justified "by faith" (Rom. 5:1-2) and that is in time and space at our regeneration/conversion experience. The only pre-world justification is the same in kind as our pre-world glorification (Rom. 8:29-30) and neither is actual or real or existent except by divine INTENT/PURPOSE before the world began.

 

All you have done is ASSERTED that you have given the truth when in FACT you have perverted every single text you use as a proof text. You have JERKED every single PROOF TEXT you have used out of its context. I merely placed the text back into its context and you have not been able to deal with it honestly but simply IGNORE the evidence placed right in your face.

For example, you used a PAST tense response "ALREADY HAVE everlasting life" in the defense of your intepretation of John 3:36 when the actual text NEVER uses a Past tense but only PRESENT TENSES. Your response? - "0" You just ignored it and went right on ASSERTING pure ignorance and error but called it "the truth."

The same is true with your response/defense of John 3:17 and other texts. You are good at ASSERTING you have the truth but incapable of defending your interpretations by what the Word of God actually says.

 

AGain, the Bible teaches they were reconciled,justified, called, glorified, redeemed, sanctified by ETERNAL PURPOSE and in subjective reality. That is all, nothing more, zilch, nada, zip!

All your scriptures fall into those two classifications. There is no substantive actual real reconciliation, justification, sanctification in eternity past any more than there is glorification and all of these are PURPOSED in eternity but not APPLIED in eternity.

This is simple but too simple for you I guess?

 

This text says nothing about eternity past. This text deals with Christ on earth on the cross at the time when Christ provided reconciliation by his own blood. This is talking about the PROVISION for reconcilition by Christ on the cross in time and in space in keeping with God's eternal purpose. Hence, this is God's eternal purpose "in Christ" being worked out in time and space.

So again, there are no scriptures that teach that we were saved, called, justified, regenerated, redeemed, glorified, sanctified, reconciled before the world began EXCEPT in purpose.

All other scriptures are by context constrained to time and space where provision and application are made.