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Not prepared for tribulation? (no pre-trib rapture)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    Would you care to share some of that Scripture?
     
  2. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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  3. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    No, you need to re-read Revelation 7:4 (KJV):

    And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    This verse shows very clear that 144,000 are Jews.
     
  4. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    I will agree to preach for you as soon as you show me a pretrib rapture in the book of Revelation ;) [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]But there's a sad ending, Bro!!! The ones still around to hear you preach----won't be in any mood to pay you when you're finished!!!! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    No, you need to re-read Revelation 7:4 (KJV):

    And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    This verse shows very clear that 144,000 are Jews.
    </font>[/QUOTE]If it does then the Bible contradicts itself since all the tribes of Israel are not mentioned. Also I believe that the word Jew comes from the tribe of Judah.
     
  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Dan is omitted, I believe. (Because of idolatry) Some say the anti-Christ may come from the tribe of Dan. Old Reg, you are correct about Jew/Judah.

    Also, Joseph had two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. In the 144,000, the name of Joseph replaces Ephraim.
     
  7. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    The Day of the Lord is the (one) day of Christ's Second Coming. It has nothing to do with 1000 years, 1007 years or anything else.

    There will be one Judgement, not five or 24. This is evident from the use of the term "Day of Judgement" in the Bible. Search the Bible for "Days of Judgement" if you think otherwise.

    Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

    Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

    Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

    Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak.

    2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

    2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Would you care to share some of that Scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]Are you serious?
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    There are many passages of Scripture which imply an early return of the Lord. Keep in mind that the New Testament was written for the Church of all time as well as for the early Church. It is true that some of the Epistles were written to specific churches. However, as part of the Canon their messages are applicable to all churches.

    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, KJV
    7. So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    8. Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 4:5, KJV
    5. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


    In these passages Paul is speaking to the church at Corinth about the return of the Lord Jesus Christ as if it were near at hand. [There is a view of prophetic time, called foreshortened future, that is used to explain the Scripture practice that makes prophetic events seem near at hand. John P. Newport in The Lion and the Lamb, page 127, writes that foreshortened future was used in the Bible to create an attitude of expectancy. This is particularly true in the New Testament teachings related to the second-coming. ] Was Paul mistaken? Not if we believe in an inerrant Bible. Paul, as did the other writers of the Bible wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ Himself taught that His people should ‘watch and wait’, as follows:

    Matthew 24:42-44, KJV
    42.Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43.But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44.Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


    In each of the following passages an attitude of expectancy is taught.

    Philippians 4:4-5, KJV
    4. Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice.
    5. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord [is] at hand.

    Hebrews 10:36-37, KJV
    36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

    1 Timothy 6:13-14, KJV
    13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
    14. That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Titus 2:11-14, KJV
    11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


    Paul’s charge to Timothy and Titus clearly demonstrate that they and all the Saints are to live in expectation of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, not that Paul held an erroneous belief in the soon return of Jesus Christ.

    Paul is not alone in his teaching of an attitude of expectancy regarding the soon return of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter writes:

    2 Peter 3:12-14, KJV
    12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


    James, the brother of our Lord, writes:

    James 5:8, KJV
    8. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.


    The New Testament was written so that Christians of every age would have an attitude of expectancy regarding the return of Jesus Christ. When believers of this age consider the condition of society they may wonder why the Lord delays His coming. Surely as it was in the days of Noah [Luke 17:26], so it is now. One thing is certain, the Lord will not return until the last of the ‘elect’, those who were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world [Ephesians. 1:4], are brought into the household of faith, which is the Church. Then the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [1 Thessalonians 4:16, KJV].
     
  10. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Show me your proof.
    According to Dr. Jack Van Impe, he wrote, "144,000 Jewish evangelists," "144,000 Israelites" and "144,000 Jews."
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mat 15:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Let them alone: they be blinde leaders
    of the blinde. And if the blinde lead the blinde,
    both shall fall into the ditch.

    Yes, that sounds like what those non-pretribs
    will do if we pretribs let them alone.
    In accordance with (IAW) the above scripture,
    please do the following if you are pretrib:

    I request as a friendly member that this topic
    is for those who believe NOT in a pre-trib rapture.
    People who do beleive in a pre-trib rapture are
    welcome to participate in this topic:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3314.html

    For those who just like to debate pretrib/anti-pretrib
    feel free to post at:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3273/9.html
    there we debate pretrib rapture or not around the clock.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Askjo,

    You mentioned to me about 144,000 all are Jews. It does mentioned, '12 tribes of Israel'. Jack Van Impe and many pretribs believe 144,000 Jews will evangelize the gospel over the world after the rapture. The problem is Revelation 7 and 14 does not saying that "Jews" will evangelize the gospel over the world, it saying, that they shall be gathering together from the world shows the picture of rapture.

    When after the sixth seal broken of Rev. 6:12-15 occurs as it mentioned of cosmic disturbance refers same with Matt. 24:29-30. Then, Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14 mentioned that all Christians of the world shall be gathering together redeemed from the unbelievers(world) is the picture of rapture, well also harvest too.

    And, OldRegular, & I both are NOT 'Replacement Theology'. We understand that God only have one family both Jews and Gentiles whosever believeth in Christ are belong to Christ's as the body of Christ, even, we are Israel.

    Romans chapter 11 explains about Gemtiles are grafted into the Tree joined with believing Jews together become into one together, SO, ALL Israel shall be saved - Romans 11:25-26.

    I do not have enough time to discuss deep about the unity both into one through Jesus Christ. I am busy today. You better read Ephesians chapter 2 talks about reconciled both Jews and Gentiles together into one through Calvary. Galatians chapter 2 talks about Abraham was saved by the faith, as also, we are saved by the faith, all are children of God, both Jews and Gentiles whososever have faith in Christ, are the only one family of God.

    Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14 does not saying that women are being excluded from them, neither, it saying these are for Jewish males only. Revelation chapter 7 and 14 gives the picture talks about the gathering of the believers from the world is the rapture at Christ's coming.

    Also, let you know, the book of Revelation is not written into chronological order. It shows of retelling the events. Revelation chapter 7 speaks of the harvest of the believers at Christ's coming. Same with Revelation chapter 14 mentioned about the gathering of the believers from the earth is the picture of the harvest. Rapture is same as harvest. Revelation chapter 14 pictures talking about the coming of Christ at the end of the age.

    Later next week, I will discuss much more deep about Revelation and eschatology issues.

    Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! [​IMG]

    God bless you!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Show me your proof.
    According to Dr. Jack Van Impe, he wrote, "144,000 Jewish evangelists," "144,000 Israelites" and "144,000 Jews."
    </font>[/QUOTE]Lady Eagle has already presented the proof above and she is dispensationalist. The tribe of Dan is missing as is the tribe of Ephraim though it could be claimed that he is included in the mention of Joseph. Following that logic, however, Manasseh is included twice.

    Frankly I could care less about what Jack Van Impe says. He is just as unlearned about Scripture as all dispensationalists, perhaps more so since he wrote that fiction about the Book of Revelation.
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Do you think this passage could be a prophetic warning against the teaching of falling away being an escape? That God is against sewing pillows (soft places to fall) uneparedness to strengthen the hand of the wicked?

    (Eze 13:16) To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

    (Eze 13:17) Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

    (Eze 13:18) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

    (Eze 13:19) And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

    (Eze 13:20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows , wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .

    (Eze 13:21) Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

    (Eze 13:22) Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

    (Eze 13:23) Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

    Also note what the Darby translation did to this very passage concerning 13:20 turning "make" them fly into that they "may" fly. Very interesting interpretation coming from Darby leads me to think suspiciously of him attempting to force his doctrine to fit of pretrib flying away.


    (ASV) Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

    (BBE) For this cause the Lord has said: See, I am against your bands with which you go after souls, and I will violently take them off their arms; and I will let loose the souls, even the souls whom you go after freely.

    (Darby) Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, that the souls which ye catch by their means may fly away; and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, the souls that ye catch, that they may fly away.

    (Geneva) Wherefore thus saith the Lorde God, Behold, I will haue to do with your pillowes, wherewith yee hunt the soules to make them to flie, and I will teare them from your armes, and will let the soules goe, euen the soules, that ye hunt to make them to flie.

    (HCSB) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

    (KJV-1611) Wherefore thus sayth the Lord God, Behold, I am against your pillowes, wherewith yee there hunt the soules to make them flie, and I will teare them from your armes, and will let the soules goe, euen the soules that ye hunt to make them flie.

    (KJVR) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

    (NASB) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
     
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