Not under law but under grace.

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"Forgiveness is granted only for sins that are past and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith."

GE

This is the denial of Grace and a mockery of forgiveness.

 

trustiti
"as long as we are in the flesh we cannot keep the law. And keeping the law is the only way to please God"

GE

As long as we are in the flesh we cannot keep the law. Yes. And that will be for as long as we are in the flesh, this side of the grave, even though we were born again.

And keeping the law is NO way to please God; for us to please God shall always be impossible, but to be found in Christ -- with, all our sins. If without a single one of our sins we think we are in Christ, we deceive ourselves.

 

HP: How is this a denial of grace? How does this make a mockery of forgiveness?

 

HP: First, I would say that you have no Scriptural basis to base the notion that the death spoken of here is mere physical death.

HP: If you are correct, then tell me if I can logically assume the following, why or why not. When one converts a sinner from the error of his way he heals him physically so he will not die physically.

 

All humans after the flood were obligated by the Noahic covenant but there isn't a single reference in the 613 positive and negative statements to one's status in the next life or to gentiles in San Antonio.

 

From the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chapters of Galaciens...

The Born again child of God has been completly freed from the bondage of, and condemnation of, the Law...

We are said there to have died to the Law.

We are instructed again that we are to consider ourselves to be dead to the Law, and if we use it to claim rightiousness then Christ died in vain.

We are instructed there that we have been redeemed from the law, and that the law is a "curse" that we have been redeemed from.

We find there that the primary purpose of the Law is to cause the lost person to understand his lost and hopeless condition, and in time drive them to Christ.

Once we have come to our senses and surrendered ourself to Christ...being born of the Spirit through faith alone in Christ...the Law has fullfilled its primary purpose.

And as christians we are to walk in the "newness of the Spirit", and not the "oldness of the letter"(Rom 7:6), because "the letter kills", but the "Spirit gives life"(2 Cor 3:6).

The Law is an instrument of death, not life. The Holy Spirit is the LIVING influence who guides us as christians.



Grace and Peace,

Mike

 

Heavenly Pilgrim,

Then nobody is saved. Not me, not you nor anyone else. All of us live in violation of Gods moral law all the time because none of us are sinlessly perfect. None of us ever reach the point of sinless perfection in this life. God says "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Thats even one sin in our entire life, and we are condemned.

No. All of our sins were placed on Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Every one of them. Whether they are past or present or future is 100% irrelavent. How many of your sins were "in the past" 2000 years ago when Christ died for them? How many were in the future 2000 years ago?

Why do you think Christ cried "It is FINISHED!" from the cross? Because the atonement had taken place. Gods verdict on you and me and everyone else was "Guilty!". Jesus Christ stepped in and said "I'll take that guilt for them, and pay their death penalty" And He did. For ALL of our sins. The scripture says The wages of sin is DEATH. Christ took it. And its credited to us because God tells us...

The scriptures tell us...

Notice how God refers to our sin in the singular each time. "...became sin", and "the iniquity of us all." All of our sins were taken care of one time in that one sacrifice.

Christ: "It...is...finished!"

Its over. The forgiviness issue, regarding salvation, is over.

How many of your sins were "in the past" 2000 years ago when Christ died for them? How many were in the future? Can you see how it doesnt matter?

The repentance that is required to be justified by God is to repent from not placing our faith in Christ and being born of the Spirit. The changed life with follow that.

Then you believe in a false gospel, and are propagating it. You believe in a gospel of works. Its "kinda God", and "kinda me". "Kinda faith" and "kinda good works."

God says...

And what would boasting include?...

Well, it depends if you mean to stay saved or whether you mean the parental forgivness that we experience in this life when we fail. The forgiviness we live in as christians has nothing to do with staying saved as you seem to be saying.

No christian ever sins with impunity. We know we shouldnt, but we do. We dont want to, but we sometimes do. We grieve about it. We dont love sin like we did as lost people, and we dont revel in it as we did as lost people. I dont know where you get this "sin with impunity" business. But is has nothing to do woth losing salvation when we sin.

I would venture to say that the greatest deception in the christian world today is those who diminish Gods great work on our behalf, and make a mockery of Christ substitutionary work by saying its "up to us" to stay "good enough" to "merit" salvation.

That satanic lie is at its worst in Catholicism with its insidiously complex "works in exchange for merit" system of forgiviness, but the same thing is spread to a lessor extent in other groups.

May God have mercy.

Mike

 

Moses lied?????

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


The Offer of Life or Death

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.


Moses lied to the people???????

 

In this case Paul defines "in the flesh" as "heart/mind SET on the things of the flesh" -- sin.

The mind that is devoted to sin - that is not set on things above .

Paul addresses us "but SET your mind on THINGS ABOVE" by contrast.

in Romans 8 there are TWO groups -- one going to hell and the other to heaven. You have asked that we stop for a moment and consider those who are going to hell. They DO not desire to follow and obey scripture NEITHER indeed CAN they - according to Paul.

He does not say that of the saved. Rather in Rom 6 Paul is clear that the one you obey - is the one you serve -- either sin or righteousness.

in Christ,

Bob

 

all True.

Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior.

ONCE we come to salvation -- the New Covenant -- the Law is WRITTEN in our HEARTs! - we are a NEW creation -- as Paul said "in my mind I AGREE with the Law of God".

In fact Paul goes so far to say "does our faith ABOLISH the Law of God? God forbid! in fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31. For we now SERVE and OBEY righteousness rather than sin (Romans 6) and sin (law breaking) is no longer "master over us".

in Christ,

Bob

 

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

HP: That is strange, I thought Paul said 'he' did. He also testified of a conscience void of offense. If you are going to say ‘we did’ the 'we' is going to have to be in possession of a like conscience as well.

 

HP: I would say, to God be the glory! :thumbs: Keep setting the example for those around you that you. God knows we need more examples of professing believers that exercise themselves.

 

When the law is "written in your heart" are you dead to it?

Or is this "died to the law" teaching in respect to the condemnation of the law -- your debt the law defines is paid at the cross. As many as have believed have died with him -

Dead to sin (sinning, law breaking)

Dead to the penalty and condemnation of the law.

YET ALIVE with the LAW written on the HEART.

"Do we then ABOLISH the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31. Hence both Paul (Romans 2) and James (James 2) argue that we are to be judged by that Law.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,'' you are doing well.


9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.[/b]

in Christ,

Bob

 

GE

You are so absolutely Seventh Day Adventist, Bob Ryan! You want the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on your heart'. Other Christians DO, not want to have the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on their hearts', but want Christ Jesus, 'written on their hearts'.

In what respect do you the SDAs and the other Christians, differ? As for the SDAs, as I have said, they want the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on their hearts' - at all costs, by no means somethings else. Why? I know too - just like you know - very well, because the SDAs are afraid they might loose control over the Fourth Commandment which they fear does not fall under the direct jurisprudence or protection of Jesus Christ, because it is not a type of Him, but rests only on the creational arrangement or dispensation of godly obedience.

As for the other Christians who so anxiously desire nothing but 'Christ' within their hearts their Law ... Why would they so fear - yea, loathe - to have the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on their hearts'? And again I know too - as you know - very well, that they are afraid of the self-same thing as the SDAs! But they, that the Seventh Day Sabbath might become the Sabbath of the LORD your God of also their Lord Jesus Christ! And that will cost them. It will cost them their senseless ramblings against the Ten-Letters-Law of God of millennia; and it will cost them to repent of sin and obstinacy against the Written Word of God. So if they could but receive Christ in their hearts they are relieved of accumalted guilt over many other and their own life-span. It is too horrible to contemplate. But contemplate your situation, SDA, is it any less horrible? Less horrible in that you refuse to receive Christ in turn for your Sabbath? Think about it. You stress man's choice so - you are facing a choice in this respect as sure as you live! "Today, if you hear .... the Law? Or, if you hear MY VOICE - Jesus Christ - do not harden your heart!"

 

I can always count on you to display your classic insight in these discussions GE. Thanks for being so consistent.

in Christ,

Bob

 

BR
"Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior."

GE
Bob Ryan, you have defined the difference between free willers and Free Gracers! "Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior" versus, After salvation, Christ, is The Law pointing out our need of a Saviour - The Law that at last is able to give Life and whereby the righteous indeed shall live! He has no need of the written Law since He became the Law Incarnated twice: born of Mary both Law and Redeemer God-Man; and Raised from the dead both Law and Redeemer God-Man. The Law no longer engraved on stones brings us to Christ; if it did, why don't the Jew come to Christ? Since Jesus Christ the Law in the Person of the personal Lord and Saviour, is all and the Only that brings or points to Christ. No one comes to the Father unless the Son draws and brings him!