Obama's clueless staff: "Muslim Brotherhood Secular, not violent"

[sag38]

Interpretation of In the Light's posts: You bad people quit picking on the poor innocent Muslim Brotherhood. They are a peace loving organization, loving of all non-Muslims, and only want the best for Egypt, Israel, and the United States.

 

[InTheLight]

Interpretation of In the Light's posts: You bad people quit picking on the poor innocent Muslim Brotherhood. They are a peace loving organization, loving of all non-Muslims, and only want the best for Egypt, Israel, and the United States.

I never said anything remotely like that. I asked for examples of the MB using violence. I sure hope your Bible interpretation is more disciplined.

 

[Don]

I never said anything remotely like that. I asked for examples of the MB using violence. I sure hope your Bible interpretation is more disciplined.

Okay; you've been given examples of associations with violent groups. Please continue with the point you wanted to make.

 

[sag38]

Exactly: Time and time again we hear on the news and other sources of the connection between the Brotherhood and radical Islam. And, just recently I was at Shocco Springs (Alabama Baptist Conference Center) listening to an Egyptian Christian describe to his audience the activity of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood is not a peace loving organization and but in the bed with radical Islam.

And, please do show us evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood is innocent if you are so concerned about us tarnishing their reputation to the point of questioning my ability to interpret the Bible (which, by the way, is a cheap shot).

 

[HankD]

Well, that still isn't showing evidence of their violence in Egypt in the last two weeks...

Be patient.

HankD

 

[InTheLight]

Okay; you've been given examples of associations with violent groups. Please continue with the point you wanted to make.

My point is that the MB seems to be playing a different strategy. They are deliberately not engaging in violence. Perhaps they see their path to power via the ballot box this time.

And, please do show us evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood is innocent if you are so concerned about us tarnishing their reputation to the point of questioning my ability to interpret the Bible (which, by the way, is a cheap shot).

Yeah, it was kind of cheap. Sorry about that. I was frustrated that you (and others) were not reading what I had written, but what you wanted to read. This is an all too common occurence in political discussions. I've done it.

There seems to be a school of thought that Egypt is going to be the next Iran in that after the revolution a hard-core radical Islamic faction will take over the country. Right wing radio talk show hosts and Newt Gingrich are espousing this view. Most conservatives are buying it. I'm not so sure. Neither is the Israeli defense minister:

ABC News Exclusive

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the massive
changes unfolding in Egypt are different than the Iran
revolution in 1979.

In a worldwide exclusive interview with "This Week"
anchor Christiane Amanpour -- filmed before
Mubarak stepped down -- Barak was asked if Egypt
was headed towards an Iranian-style revolution.

"I don't believe that something similar to the Iranian
events 30 years ago is happening now. I think that
the Egyptians, they have their own way," he said.

Barak, however, warned against Egypt holding
elections too soon. He said the only group ready to
run and win an election would be the Muslim
Brotherhood.

"The real winners of any short-term election, let's say
within 90 days, will be the Muslim Brotherhood,
because they are already ready to jump and the --
usually in revolutions, if they are violent, there is an
eruption of idealist sentiment at the first moment and
later on, sooner than later, the only group which is
coherent, focused, ready to kill and be killed if
necessary, takes power," he said. "That should be
avoided in Egypt because that could be a catastrophe
for the whole region."

Amanpour asked Barak whether he believed the
Brotherhood when they said they don't want to run for
the Presidency of Egypt.

"I tend not to believe a radical Muslim movement," he
said. But he explained all Islamist groups were not
the same. "I think that we should not very easily
compare them to, I know, to the most extremist
groups of terror and so on. It's an Egyptian version.
Many of them are less extremist," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/excl...hud-barak-egypts-revolution/story?id=12905130

 

[mandym]

There seems to be a school of thought that Egypt is going to be the next Iran in that after the revolution a hard-core radical Islamic faction will take over the country. Right wing radio talk show hosts and Newt Gingrich are espousing this view. Most conservatives are buying it. I'm not so sure. Neither is the Israeli defense minister:

Wrong and right wing radio is not espousing this view. What some on this board and conservative radio is actually espousing is that there is the potential for it to become the next Iran.

 

[InTheLight]

Wrong and right wing radio is not espousing this view. What some on this board and conservative radio is actually espousing is that there is the potential for it to become the next Iran.

Yes, well you must realize that Limbaugh is the master on innuendo. He rarely says anything straight up. Usually it is in the form of leading questions, like this:

Rush Limbaugh
We have said from the get-go that if you wanted the second term of Jimmy Carter, elect Barack Obama, and here we are, and what happened in the first term of Jimmy Carter? We lost Iran to a bunch of radical Islamist extremists. Are we looking at the second term of Jimmy Carter here, losing Egypt to a bunch of radicalized Islamist extremists?

http://nation.foxnews.com/rush-limbaugh/2011/01/31/limbaugh-pharaoh-obama-has-his-egypt-moment


Talking about the increasingly volatile developments in Egypt last night, Newt Gingrich communicated what he thought so far of the Obama Administration’s handling of the crisis. And he had only disparagements to hand out in his description of Obama and company’s series of blunders. Citing the very real potential for great harm and risk to emerge in Egypt if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power (as many expect it to), Gingrich declared that Obama’s performance has been as bad as Jimmy Carter’s performance in the late 1970s regarding Iran, which saw the American alliance there collapse in the face of a hostile, Islamic takeover.

http://www.examiner.com/american-po...-handling-of-egypt-to-carter-handling-of-iran


Hugh Hewitt
A much, much worse Egyptian dictatorship could be around the corner. Would any of the talking heads care to argue the world is better off for the shah having fallen in 1979 as opposed to a quieter exit a year or two down the road with anyone except the fanatical mullah as supreme leader?

http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/2011/02/will-mubarak-s-fall-egypt-resemble-shah-s-iran


Bill Bennett
Right now, however, the choice seems to once again be between a tough autocracy that is embarrassing to any rational notion of human rights and a Muslim Brotherhood that respects little outside its own definition of Islam and is even less tolerable to the stability of the region and our relations in the Middle East.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-31/...ans-egypt-al-azhar-university/2?_s=PM:OPINION


Posters only talking about it being a potential outcome? I think not.

(responding to this posted by KenH:
I don't see this being a late 1970's Iranian style religious based uprising.) What the people in the streets want and what they get will no doubt be two different things.
Do you think that the "students" in Iran in the 70's wanted what they ended up getting?

It is possible that the entire mid-East will soon be under some form of radical Muslim government.

Any one who does not think the mid-East will eventually be under Muslim rule has their head in the sand.

Sorry, but, I don't see a democracy coming forth in Eygpt.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70027

 

[carpro]

One can debate endlessly the violent aspects of the muslim brotherhood. It does exist, covert though it is.

What one cannot debate is the idiotic statement by Obama's Clapper that it is a "secular" organization.


Posted: February 07, 2011
8:35 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein

An Egyptian Islamist terrorist organization founded by the Muslim Brotherhood is re-establishing itself amid the political upheaval in Cairo, WND has learned.

Both Egyptian and Israeli security officials said the group, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, is being reconstituted at the direction of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The officials affirmed Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya serves as the de facto "military" wing of the Brotherhood, which originally founded Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya.

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya is suspected of involvement in the 1981 assassination of Egyptian president Anwar Sadat and it took credit for the 1995 attempted killing of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. It has carried out scores of deadly terrorist attacks, some targeting foreign tourists.

The Muslim Brotherhood seeks to spread Islam around the world. Hamas and al-Qaida are violent Brotherhood offshoots.

While the Brotherhood claimed it abandoned violence to push for a peaceful takeover of Egypt, the group's new spiritual leader, Muhammad Badi, recently has publicly called for violent jihad, including against the U.S.

Read more: Muslim Brotherhood awakens terrorist wing http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=261069#ixzz1DymlwvmS

 

[mandym]

Yes, well you must realize that Limbaugh is the master on innuendo. He rarely says anything straight up. Usually it is in the form of leading questions, like this:

Rush Limbaugh
We have said from the get-go that if you wanted the second term of Jimmy Carter, elect Barack Obama, and here we are, and what happened in the first term of Jimmy Carter? We lost Iran to a bunch of radical Islamist extremists. Are we looking at the second term of Jimmy Carter here, losing Egypt to a bunch of radicalized Islamist extremists?

http://nation.foxnews.com/rush-limbaugh/2011/01/31/limbaugh-pharaoh-obama-has-his-egypt-moment


Talking about the increasingly volatile developments in Egypt last night, Newt Gingrich communicated what he thought so far of the Obama Administration’s handling of the crisis. And he had only disparagements to hand out in his description of Obama and company’s series of blunders. Citing the very real potential for great harm and risk to emerge in Egypt if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power (as many expect it to), Gingrich declared that Obama’s performance has been as bad as Jimmy Carter’s performance in the late 1970s regarding Iran, which saw the American alliance there collapse in the face of a hostile, Islamic takeover.

http://www.examiner.com/american-po...-handling-of-egypt-to-carter-handling-of-iran


Hugh Hewitt
A much, much worse Egyptian dictatorship could be around the corner. Would any of the talking heads care to argue the world is better off for the shah having fallen in 1979 as opposed to a quieter exit a year or two down the road with anyone except the fanatical mullah as supreme leader?

http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/2011/02/will-mubarak-s-fall-egypt-resemble-shah-s-iran


Bill Bennett
Right now, however, the choice seems to once again be between a tough autocracy that is embarrassing to any rational notion of human rights and a Muslim Brotherhood that respects little outside its own definition of Islam and is even less tolerable to the stability of the region and our relations in the Middle East.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-31/...ans-egypt-al-azhar-university/2?_s=PM:OPINION


Posters only talking about it being a potential outcome? I think not.






http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70027

Thanks for making my point.

 

[InTheLight]

One can debate endlessly the violent aspects of the muslim brotherhood. It does exist, covert though it is.

What one cannot debate is the idiotic statement by Obama's Clapper that it is a "secular" organization.

I can agree with these statements.

An Egyptian Islamist terrorist organization founded by the Muslim Brotherhood is re-establishing itself amid the political upheaval in Cairo, WND has learned.

Read more: Muslim Brotherhood awakens terrorist wing http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=261069#ixzz1DymlwvmS

"An unnamed source has told WND...." Sorry but I don't put much credence in that article.

 

[carpro]

I can agree with these statements.

"An unnamed source has told WND...." Sorry but I don't put much credence in that article.

Of course! It's from WND and many believe that conveniently relieves them of the obligation to acknowledge the truth when it's inconvenient. Followed by absolutely no attempt to disprove the report.

I understand perfectly.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[InTheLight]

Of course! It's from WND and many believe that conveniently relieves them of the obligation to acknowledge the truth when it's inconvenient. Followed by absolutely no attempt to disprove the report.

I understand perfectly.:smilewinkgrin:

The WND conveniently believes they are not obligated to naming sources thus making it impossible to verify their stories. They also imply they have some sort of extensive intelligence network.

 

[carpro]

The WND conveniently believes they are not obligated to naming sources thus making it impossible to verify their stories. They also imply they have some sort of extensive intelligence network.

What you are conveniently overlooking is the heart of the story. It's factual history concerning well known connections of the mb with terrorist organizations.

Instead you zero in on the fact that "security officials" would always want to remain anonymous.

It's done in MSM newspapers every day.

But your nitpicking doesn't change the facts in the story. Avoiding them and overlooking them won't make them go away.

The Muslim Brotherhood seeks to spread Islam around the world. Hamas and al-Qaida are violent Brotherhood offshoots.
While the Brotherhood claimed it abandoned violence to push for a peaceful takeover of Egypt, the group's new spiritual leader, Muhammad Badi, recently has publicly called for violent jihad, including against the U.S.

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya was founded by the Muslim Brotherhood, and is classified as a terrorist group by the U.S., European Union and Egypt. Like the Muslim Brotherhood, the group is dedicated to the overthrow of Mubarak, seeking to replace his regime with an Islamic state.

The group has carried out numerous deadly attacks.

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya may have been involved indirectly in Sadat's assassination. The group's leader has talked publicly about collaborating in planning the murder with the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, which was blamed for the killing.

In the late 1980s and 1990s, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya carried out scores of terrorist acts in Egypt, including the murders and attempted murders of prominent Egyptian writers and intellectuals. The group also targeted tourists and foreigners.

In 1997, it carried out the notorious Luxor massacre in Luxor, Egypt, killing 58 foreign tourists and four Egyptians. Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya went on a shooting rampage in that attack, even reportedly mutilating the bodies of victims. A note praising Islam was found inside one disemboweled body.

One year earlier, in 1996, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya carried out a shooting rampage at the Europa Hotel in Cairo, killing 18 Greek tourists.

In 1995, the group took responsibility for a car bomb attack on the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan, murdering 16 people.

After a massive Egyptian crackdown on the group in 1997 following the Luxor attack, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya brokered a deal with the Egyptian government that is known as the Nonviolence Initiative, in which some leaders of the movement said they renounced violence.

Still, exiled leaders of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya maintained the group would not give up its violence.

Care to take on the facts?

 

[InTheLight]

Care to take on the facts?

I'm not disagreeing with you, really. I'm merely stating that the MB in Egypt did not resort to violence during the revolution and may be seeking a new strategy to gain power there. Also, I don't necessarily think that Egypt is the next Iran.

 

[mandym]

I'm not disagreeing with you, really. I'm merely stating that the MB in Egypt did not resort to violence during the revolution and may be seeking a new strategy to gain power there. Also, I don't necessarily think that Egypt is the next Iran.

It may not be but the potential needs to be recognized without overstating the situation.

 

[rbell]

I'm not disagreeing with you, really. I'm merely stating that the MB in Egypt did not resort to violence during the revolution and may be seeking a new strategy to gain power there. Also, I don't necessarily think that Egypt is the next Iran.

They haven't yet...but my point was that our own State Department is worried about them, and then this buffoon simply ignores what his people (LOTS of them) are telling him). This guy (Clapper) lives in a fantasy world, and is dangerous to have in charge of anything, IMO.

Furthermore...I will agree that for now things don't look Iran-like. But I think the potential is there: An autocratic leader, flush with the spoils of power, forced to leave, a largely youth-oriented uprising...if a charismatic fundy-leader steps up (Ayatollah, 2011-Egypt style), we've got a problem. Egypt is not Saudi Arabia. There's quite a bit of poverty. There are nowhere near the oil resources in Egypt that exist elsewhere.

Finally...folks tend to respond in these situations in reactionary ways. Mubarak will likely be followed (if the people have their way) by an anti-Mubarak. There could be a swing away from secularization (as Mubarak was fairly secular for a muslim country leader). Also, since Mubarak was not so hostile to Israel, a pendulum swing could bring in an incindiery figure. Are the MB that way? Dunno...but there's NO doubt they're more friendly to the fringe than Mubarak was. And keep in mind...all this revolution in Allahland has happened in the last few weeks. Things are very fluid.

Additional edit: IMHO an endemic problem in Muslim states--the propensity to blindly follow charismatic leaders. A weakness of the religion, I think.

 

[targus]

Finally...folks tend to respond in these situations in reactionary ways. Mubarak will likely be followed (if the people have their way) by an anti-Mubarak. There could be a swing away from secularization (as Mubarak was fairly secular for a muslim country leader). Also, since Mubarak was not so hostile to Israel, a pendulum swing could bring in an incindiery figure. Are the MB that way?

Are the Muslim Brotherhood hostile towards Israel?

Absolutely - they continually call for the destruction of Israel.

Do they want an Islamic state government?

Absolutely.

 

[sag38]

I read in today Wall Street Journal (a reputable news source for In the Light) that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt seems to be two sided. One side is very conservative in nature and would take on the entire world in the name of Jihad. The other is not so violent and seems to be more open. Which one will win out? Based on what we've witnessed so far from the Muslim world I wouldn't be placing bets for the more liberal minded within the Muslim Brotherhood. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.

 

[InTheLight]

I read in today Wall Street Journal (a reputable news source for In the Light) that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt seems to be two sided. One side is very conservative in nature and would take on the entire world in the name of Jihad. The other is not so violent and seems to be more open. Which one will win out? Based on what we've witnessed so far from the Muslim world I wouldn't be placing bets for the more liberal minded within the Muslim Brotherhood. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.

The article states that the moderate, liberal element are the younger members that are technically savvy and gained a lot of clout with the old guard by effecting change by demonstrating peaceably.

This is a fascinating subject matter to follow. I think the moderate younger faction will win out eventually, but I agree with you that it could take some time and in the near term, unfortunately for Egypt, the old guard's policies will probably prevail.

Article here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...6135882819143872.html?mod=WSJ_article_related