Featured Omniscience and Determinism

Interacting is what you are quite obviously trying to AVOID.

This is abundantly clear by your evading the ACTUAL questions posed to you.

 

If you want me to respect you, Skan, answer my questions directly without twisting them.

 

A lot of words to evade the fact that you are unwilling to answer a simple question as it is posed to you.

 

Skan,

It is definitely hard to openly reason outside of our own views I'll give you that. One of the reasons my view does come off deterministic is because of events in history. I do not fully understand how youve worked out the details in your view of God and I respect the fact that they are well thought out.

The bible does reveal that God is infinite in His attributes, knows all, all things before Him, all powerful etc. It also reveals truths, seemingly, on a level we can see. For example, God has a purpose in creation before the world was created. So we see things are revealed on our level: past, present, future. Philosophically speaking God probably sees all events in and outside of time therefore he is not trapped on our present time. Further philosophical reasoning would tell me that Gods omniscience means he never reasons or plans at all because He is always all knowing to perfection already. To say he at some point made plans also says He at some point didnt know something in the future.

Going back to my opening 2 sentences above and back to reality as it is revealed to us in Scrpture (on a humanly level). Lets look at 4 events that link across scripture and i dont plan this to be a long debate. The fall, the life of judah, the life of King david, and the coming of Christ. Now we both should agree that before creation God knew all events and made no mistakes. He created a world destined to fall pretty quickly so that a few thousand years downs the road He would step into it to die for it. Dont stop and take that statement to far. The fall of man then came as God planned. He hated it but it was necessary. Clearly in the same chapter jesus was the purpose. And the line of descendants began abel, seth, enoch, noah.... Then we cone to Judah the line of kings and descendent of this line.... Then we get to David... And after many generations Jesus is born.

My point is, how intricate is that? How in the intricate course of history can God bring about His purpose of the christ? Does he control no events but merely sees these events happen as He has allowed? Does He only control important events to insure things go as planned? Or does He control all events to insure that things go as planned?
I dont think omniscience goes far enough, nor do I think controlling a few events can righlty bring about His purposes, therefore I think the point of Scripture shows God in all events working out all things to His purpose.

I simply cant see (humanly speaking) how God can leave things unattended and they not effect the things We call big things (chosen line to christfor example).

Example: what if in eternity past God saw that Adam would not sin? David refuse to be king, isaiah committing suicide, or the jews accept the christ and not kill Him? Those are just big things, but how important are the small events we dont think about? Dont they all work together? Thus is God not in control of all things?

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate. God has a time-travel crystal ball. He does not foresee what will happen, He foresees what has happened. Therefore, He knows what we will choose, yet this choice was made freely, since God's knowledge is of our choice, not of what we will choose.

The above slice of baloney is simply what is called in the propaganda business an enabling scenario. You take all the known facts, and create a story that incorporates them in a way consistent with your agenda. Never mind the bible explicitly demonstrates this view is utterly bogus. God does not foresee the future, He brings the future event into existence, He causes it to happen as He foretold it would happen.

So by the numbers once again:

1) Calvinism offers an irrational view, whatsoever comes to pass was ordained (predestined) by God but God is not the author of sin. This logical impossibility is defended by pointing that it is possible for God to do what we think is impossible. However, since scripture does not say God predestines everything, for it says things happen by chance, the whole premise is irrational. At its core, it simply is selling a pig in a poke.

2) Arminianism offers an irrational view, God knows the future exhaustively, yet this does not predetermine the future to what God knows will happen. To support this the time traveling crystal ball is invented.

3) The third view, one that is not irrational, and is consistent with all scripture, has been determined by those probably holding one of the above views, to be unorthodox.

 

And where do the Primitive Baptists fit in to this whole cabal? Ive begun to believe I follow a different gospel than most people, that I am in a minority position. If this is so then there is no need (except to argue my scriptural beliefs) to be posting here or to give my time to even signing in. Im far better off communicating with my own.

 

you win the ironic
post of the year award :laugh:

 

Perhaps in some ways, except for the fact that "As Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Assuming that there are ZERO men who have it all figured out, then you are by necessity left to converse with men (& women) who do not have all the correct beliefs, and and who probably don't have all the same beliefs as you.

 

I agree. Omniscience and omnipresence tie in with His many omni attributes, some we can understand to a degree like omnipotence, but omniscience and omnipresence are mysterious to us and might always be as we are finite beings. I've been mocked her for my understanding that God can know all, and at times appear not to know something. This is a tension found in scripture. The very concept of prayer encompasses this, as how can the righteous persons prayer mean diddly to a deterministic God? I'm fine with agreeing with these tensions and don't need a systematic theology to try and explain everything.

 

And so, how is that different from what I have in here now?

 

Pitchback

I am not!! Was it sin for Abraham to prepare to sacrifice his son, his only son? What has been the view for 2000 years!! Does God punish the person responsible, or does God punish the son for the sins of the father? Your belief God punishes people for the actions He predestines breaks with the vast majority of Church history. Other than hyper Calvinists, you will not find any support for your monstrous view.

Here is a "Reformed" source, knowing you do not seem able to grasp any other view:

This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin. This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin
who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.”

 

I was simply saying I think there is value in this board, and in conversing with those of varying opinions...You seemed to be saying there was not value in it other than for us to be convinced of your views...I would say there is value for both sides...even the side who already has the correct view.

 

Alternative views.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, Heb 9:27 1st part

When was that appointment made?
What man who was without sin would keep that appointment?
When was the appointment of death for the Son of God born of woman made?
Why was it so determined?

But with the precious blood of Christ, (death) as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19,20 (Being the same statement as.) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Van, I understand you disagree with that.)

The first man Adam had not yet been created. This Adam; Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12 This Adam;
For as in Adam all die, 1 Cor 15:22 1st part

What was God doing?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Death wasn't the judgement. Judgement takes place at some point in time after, yet maybe also before. Who is going to do the judging?

Are all presently being judged as to what there future will be? Or maybe we should ask whether they will, to be or not to be. The wages of sin death.

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:14,16,17

Do those in bold assist the Lord in the judgement? Were they called (elected) for the sole purpose of salvation or for something else?

even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22 For since by man death, by man also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:21 but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27 lst part

I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I will leave you with.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

 

We all fall under one of the three categories i mentioned:

1. God allows all things and acts directly (controls) in nothing.

2. God acts directly (controls)in certain events (you).

3. God acts directly (controls) in all events. (Mine)

Now whatever caregory each of us fall under and have sometimes radical variations from another in our caregory. A typical cal would fall under caregory 3, try to incorporate some of category 2 and then get maligned (sometimes rightfully) for inconsistency. The same goes for most non cals in category 2.

I am starting to understand how you deal with category two and how that leads you to deal with passages in the NT that Calvinists use.

Anyway, how do you deal with separating certain events as special events that God directly controls from those He simply lets run freely? I assume only events you see God controlling in scripture?​