Once Saved Always Saved - Biblical??

6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


SO according to you - SIN IS GREATER THEN GRACE - SIN DEFEATS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

Good job keep it up!

Think on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 as well

Think of the rich young ruler asked to give up his wealth and follow Christ - this man did almost every single thing right and was not saved

Your arguments were extremely poor - and alas if I didnt work 7 days a week - id dedicate myself to arguing with you

Because from your viewpoint flows the idiocy of needing to be refilled with the Holy Spirit - and other doctrines which ascribe to a lesser sovereignty of God

 

I'm not aware of any (or even certain! grin) translations that say "certain/some". But I have two answers as to why that would be so. One is rather flippant -- can you imagine how people would react if that's how translators presumed to word it? I can see the lynch mob now!

But my serious answer is that it isn't necessary. The context tells you all means "certain", and tells you who the "certain" are (the elect, which is how Peter refers to his audience earlier).

Emphasis and comments in {} brackets mine...

I hope you will agree with me that "any" must refer back to "to us-ward", since the context of the language demands it. The question is whether "us" means "our certain group, namely the elect" or "us", namely mankind.

The text surrounding 2 Peter 3:9 identifies the audience as the elect, and he even summarizes his point with "....therefore what manner of persons ought ye to be?"

Perhaps Peter was simply a poor writer, but if Peter were truly trying to communicate the message that "to us-ward" meant all mankind, there would have been much easier ways to have worded it in the Greek. He could simply have said that God is longsuffering to all men (pas anthropos), not willing that any of them (all men) should perish. But that's not what Peter said.

 

I wantedto put in a great lambasting reply, but my wife told me to get offline. Maybe some other time...

In Christ,
Trotter

PS- How can man undo what God has done?

 

Npetreley,
Thanks for discussing your point in a Christ like manner and going over scriptures in your point of view. It is people like you that are on this board that keeps me here.
As for Sularis your words/action give me pretty good idea what type of person you are. Thank you Lord Jesus for providing me with knowledge “by their fruits you shall know them”

Once again a thread has turned into sarcastic posting, “good job keep it up.” I ask, if you disagree please just post the scriptures from the God’s holy word to back up your opinion and leave sarcastic/personnel remarks out of it.

Let me ask a question to the OSAS crowd: Does man have a license to sin? Once a person is saved, he can do whatever he wishes, adultery, murder, lie, steal and cheat and still be saved?
Or was this person never saved to begin with?

I have read the scriptures that support OSAS but lets look at the scripture that do not and study them together. I am open to what your interuptation is.
Some have been listed already and discussed, So if more is need I can look them up.

Here is a couple:
HE THAT OVERCOMETH, THE SAME SHALL BE CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, BUT I WILL CONFESS HIS NAME BEFORE MY FATHER, AND BEFORE HIS ANGELS-Rev 3:5


6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

I see two members sharing the same belief, one of then has a wonderful attitude that opens my mind and heart to listen to what they have to say and the other one disgust me and my listening ears are turned off.
I look forward to your next post npetreley.

 

Thanks very much. I confess there are times I am tempted to be sarcastic or tactless, and there are times I give in to that temptation, but I pray God will give me more strength the next times that happens. I just wanted to make sure you know I struggle just like many others.

Nobody, saved or otherwise, has a license to sin.

It is impossible for me to judge someone who claims to be saved who persists in sinful behavior. If I had to guess, I'd say they were not saved, but only God truly knows something like that. I don't think we can simply assume that because someone acts like he has a license to sin he must therefore not be saved. Here are two scriptures that give me this impression:

Here we have Corinthians who were getting drunk at the Lord's supper, and were extremely disrespectful of the meaning of the Lord's supper. Paul points out the consequences: some are weak and some of them have fallen asleep. In other words, God chastised them and took some home early to prevent them from continuing in their outrageous behavior. As far as I can see, the expression "fallen asleep" is never used for the unsaved.) They were being sinful in one of the worst ways -- yet God did not take away their salvation, he chastised them and took some home by cutting their time here short.

Personally, I think this passage relates more closely to the true meaning of good tree/good fruit, bad tree/bad fruit than it does to licentiousness. But the principle is related. The saved person is still saved even though he doesn't do TRUE good works (that is, he attempts to live doing his own idea of what good works are instead of allowing Jesus to work through him). His disobedience causes him to lose rewards, but it does not mean he is no longer saved.

All this says is that "he that overcomes". It doesn't say how he overcomes. I know this overlaps with the issue of free will/election, but IMO, the Bible teaches that we are HIS workmanship in Christ Jesus, and therefore when we overcome something, it is not a matter of effort on our part, but on the degree to which we surrender to His will.

Again, this relates directly to that issue of good tree/good fruit, bad tree/bad fruit. Notice that Jesus says to those who preached, cast out demons, and did wonders in His name, "I never knew you." They were doing these so-called "good works" on their own, so their so-called "good works" were worthless. Good works are only worth anything if God is doing the working through us -- their "goodness" is not based on the outward appearances of what they accomplish.

Here we have yet again another place where Jesus says, "I know you not." IMO, that expression is VERY significant, as is "I never knew ye". The "never" is extremely significant, as well. It dovetails perfectly with this verse:

Now the Greek word for "foreknew" is proginosko, which means to pro (fore) ginosko (know). Here is the definition of "know" or "ginosko":

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel

1. to become known

to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of

1. to understand
2. to know

Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

to become acquainted with, to know

Therefore proginosko conveys an intimate knowledge, even one that is as dramatic as becoming one flesh in the Jewish idiom. In other words, the Greek says something akin to "those God foreknew in an intimate way". The Greek does not say "those God knew would do this or that".

Now look at what God does with those He foreknows: First, 8:29 says God predestines them to conform to the likeness of His Son. Then God says...

Done deal. There's no room for falling away, unless one can add into this the possibility that man can thwart God's will to bring those He foreknows to the completion of His plan.

If my interpretation is correct, then it makes the former references to "know" much easier to understand. Why would Jesus say to those who did "good works" (preaching, casting out demons, wonders all in the name of Jesus) "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." He would say that because He works in those he foreknew, not those who do works.

So it isn't a matter of the quality of one's works, but where those works are coming from. If they originate in Him, and you (the editorial you, not you specifically) are working because He is living and working in you, then you are a good tree producing good fruit. If He isn't working in you (the editorial you, not you specifically), then He is not living in you, and you are none of His and therefore a bad tree producing bad fruit. It doesn't matter how good the works appear to be to anyone on the outside. He'll simply say quite rightly, "Depart from me, I never knew you."

Consequently, I don't think we can always judge that someone is unsaved because his works seem "bad" to us on the outside. Maybe they aren't saved, and maybe I'll even think that to myself - it's a natural thing to do. But when I do, I'll try to qualify it with "but only God knows" and "if it weren't for what God does in me on a daily basis, I might be behaving in exactly the same way."

 

The verses in 1 John are what is called a third class conditional sentence. It is the idea of probable future. The writer of 1 John is contrasting verse 6 and 7. Verse six is an indirect discourse. It is the idea that if we tell someone we are a Christian and we don't act like one then we are not. He is showing what characterizes a Christian.

It's much like the passage in Matthew 7:21-23, " "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Our salvation is secured by Jesus Christ. Nothing can change that fact. So if our salvation is not secure then that leaves Jesus as a conditional salvation. Jesus either died for the world or He did not. His end of the deal is secure. But He waits for us to respond to the gift of salvation. It is given to those who believe. James talks about a genuine saving faith and contrasts that with a creedal faith.

If you were to look at the hsitorical context of the NT it would be easier to understand what the believers understood salvation to be and the price they paid. How can we share a hope so salvation. Salvation is not dependent upon works. Our part is by faith in Christ.

John 1:12,13 says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Romans 10:9,10 says, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Hebrews 11:6 tells of the only way we can please God, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"

So often those who believe you can lose your salvation also believe that salvation is secured by faith in Christ but lost by works.

But Titus 3:5 and Ephesians teach diferently.

Titus 3:5-7, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Some may use Hebrews 6 to support the idea od losing your salvation. But the historical context is that the Jews when persecution and hard times came they wanted to straddle the fence by going back into Judaism. The writer tell them to press on and go on by faith in Christ.

 

I feel like a third party has been brought into this discussion, and I'm not well-enough equipped to respond. With respect to this topic, I don't know Calvin's works as well as I do, say, Luther's. Regardless, I'd rather confine our discussion to what you believe vs. what I believe. I can't defend Calvin, but I can tell you what I believe.

If you took cheerleaders away from football, would the players stop playing? Peter is exhorting the reader to do the right things, and to grow in grace. He does not want them to fall into error or sinful behavior. And he says so. But he never says, "or else you'll lose your salvation."

Again, you're arguing with Calvin, not me. I'm in no position to defend him.

 

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 2 Peter 3:17 NIV

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:20-22 NIV


Although the epistles of Peter aren’t written just to warn believers from falling away there are plenty of references to show both the possibility and warning. There is also ample evidence that the common popular notion of election being a done deal is also false.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

A man may be saved, but he is still in this world of sin, still housed in his body of fallen flesh. How can any man, through the works and deeds of his flesh, undo the sovereign work of Jesus Christ?

We are told that it is God who does the saving, not man (John 17:2, for example). If salvation is solely the work of God, and not by what we bring to the bargaining table, explain to me how a man can undo that which God has wrought?

Many of the verses that have been discussed may appear to uphold one side or the other, but what are their contexts? To whom were they written? What was the circumstances? What caused the letter (or words) to be written and sent (or spoken)? What was the condition of the recipients? In short, it is a small matter to find any number of verses to uphold ANY position, IF those verses are taken out of their contexts (just look to any number of cults for illustrations).

My question, if any would be so kind as to answer it, is what does it take to lose one's salvation?

Jesus said:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

How may we pluck ourselves from the hand of God? True, many verses tell us to beware lest we fall in many number of ways. But, is "to fall" only to be considered "to lose your salvation"? Many people have fallen. We sin and fall every day (unless one believes that one can live above sin).

I do not mean to sound sarcastic, and beg your forgiveness if I have. I know of too many who wrestle with the question of their own salvation (thinking that they are not worthy of God's love and forgiveness), much less if some one were to try to twist their faith with the idea that if they mess up, they go to hell anyway.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Here is a quick overview on how I believe someone would lose his or her salvation.
John doe was a non-believing drunk living life to fulfill his sinful carnal desires. One day John got saved and all the drunkenness stopped, no bars and no nightclubs, just Jesus. A year goes by and he thinks “the Bible really does not come out and say drinking is a sin and I know a few people on the BB drink, so I can have one." He starts out with having one and then one day he accidentally gets drunk. He repents and stops drinking again for a couple of weeks. He starts up again and before he knows it he stopping for happy hour everyday and getting drunk. He used to repent when he got drunk but all of a sudden he stopped repenting. A few years pass in this time and before you know it he is back to his old ways.
I believe John here has lost his salvation; his heart was hardened and had no sign of repentance.
Did he commit one sin too many?
No, his heart changed.
Anyway that is how I see it.

What you think given this case?

 

Here is a quick overview on how I believe someone would lose his or her salvation.
John doe was a non-believing drunk living life to fulfill his sinful carnal desires. One day John got saved and all the drunkenness stopped, no bars and no nightclubs, just Jesus. A year goes by and he thinks “the Bible really does not come out and say drinking is a sin and I know a few people on the BB drink, so I can have one." He starts out with having one and then one day he accidentally gets drunk. He repents and stops drinking again for a couple of weeks. He starts up again and before he knows it he stopping for happy hour everyday and getting drunk. He used to repent when he got drunk but all of a sudden he stopped repenting. A few years pass in this time and before you know it he is back to his old ways.
I believe John here has lost his salvation; his heart was hardened and had no sign of repentance.
Did he commit one sin too many?
No, his heart changed.
Anyway that is how I see it.

What you think given this case? </font>[/QUOTE]What you just pointed out was what Jesus did too. The point is not about elementary salvation. It is about walking with God. One who walks with God knows about His salvation. (1 John 5:11-13)

Look at the point of the following parable:

Mark 4:3-9, "Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. "Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. "And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. "Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. "Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

You don't know the role of the Holy Spirit in that person's life. Certainly their focus was more on their ways than on God's. Church history tells us that when persecution came a number in the early church turned their backs on God. Later they repented. The people took them back into their fellowship after they repented.

Your story is man's observation of a point in time. It is not God's. What you are saying in effect is that the person can lose their salvation by works. Salvation is received by faith in Christ. It cannot be lost by works if it is received by faith. Salvation is secured by Christ. It is secure or it is not.

Judas fooled Jesus' disciples but not Jesus.

The scripture says that there are some who appear as Christians but are not.

Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' ."

It is not for us to judge. It is God who judges. We cannot pass judgment on a person in regard to salvation.

1 John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

The word for "know" in verse 13 means to have an intimate knowledge of such as a man knows a woman who he is married to. The word is in the perfect tense which denotes an action that occurred in ast time that has been completed and has produced a result that has continued to the present time of the speaker. The primary emphasis is upon the continuing result from the past action.

It is the idea that they knew and am continuing to know.

 

By not remaining in Christ we put ourselves in a dangerous position of becoming an apostate. Our hearts become hardened by our disobedience and this leads to unbelief. Having our hearts hardened makes it possible for us to be deceived or makes it possible for us to deny the Lord who saved us. Here are some verses that illustrate this.


In the love of Christ,
Tim


"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6 NIV

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22 NIV

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:8 NIV

"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:7-11 NIV

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:20-22 NIV

 

By a person deciding to accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

 

Before I say this, let me establish that I am not advocating licentiousness or disobedience, nor am I excusing it. I would also exhort everyone to love Jesus with all their heart, and let Him work in you (apart from Him you can do nothing).

Anyway, the concept that we must maintain our salvation through good works sounds like buying salvation from a car dealer with no money down. You get your Toyota for "free" (grace), and all you have to do to keep it is pay $300 a month (perserverence).

I guess we have to change the hymn "Jesus paid it all" to "Jesus paid the down payment, the rest I owe to God, sin keeps leaving a crimson stain, I'll whitewash it as I go."

 

So, as I understand what has been said, if a person does not walk the straight and narrow, then he loses salvation? Again, how can a man's works undo that which is the sovereign work of God?

Salvation comes through faith in and acceptance of Christ and His finished work. The faith that we have is given to us by God, the decision that we made was foreordained before the foundation of the world, the quickening of the spirit within us is the result of the Holy Spirit taking up His residence. What part of this can a man undo?

The arguements put forth, although "backed" by a lot of verses, are extremely flimsy if viewed from outside the mindset of one who believes that a man can undo his own salvation. Many verses speak of watching our conduct, watching our ways, watching our thoughts, all to warn us of the dangers inherant in those very actions. But not one of them says, "...or you will lose your salvation and go to hell." Jesus said that He came so that we may have eternal life, not conditional life.

To try to justify the view of God rescending a man's salvation because the man did not live perfectly (or lived far from it) is to try to pull God down to the level of man's reasoning. Man would take back salvation if man thought that the recipient was not living up to the standards that he thought one should. Thankfully, God does not look at us in the same way that we look at each other.

As was said above, Judas fooled the other disciples, but not Jesus. I have seen many people have an "emotional experience", only to get up and continue to live for the devil. Were they saved? Their fruits bear testimony of no change, no spiritual quickening, no righteousness. I know of two men in my church who fooled everybody for a long time. One was a Sunday School super for years, but was unsaved.

I have talked with many people who said, "I thought I was saved, but then God showed me that I had never knew Him." Were these people guilty of losing their salvation? No, because they had never possessed it. It is an easy thing to pretend to be a Christian (don't curse, be polite, know a little about church and the Bible), because I did it at one time. After God got a hold of me, I know what true salvation is. I have stumbled, I have fallen, and I have took a running leap, but I have never lost that which God wrought in me.

I stand on the promise of Christ, ETERNAL LIFE.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Pinoybaptist, "lose", not "gain".

In Christ,
Trotter