"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!

These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.

 

Greetings

Bob Ryan lists the Hebrews warnings as "PROOF" that one can lose one's salvation. Let's see what the author has to say elsewhere in his text. Consider the follow features of Jesus’ ministries.

(1) Jesus is our High Priest. He faithfully (3:1) has purged our sins (1:3), makes reconciliation for the sins (2:17-18). But since He is seated in the heavenly places (8:1) this work is finished! Sins have been forgiven, reconciliation has been accomplished, no more sacrifices can ever be made (7:27). For by one offering He has perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified (10:14). Jesus understands our situation (4:14-15) and is able to grant grace and mercy (4:16). As our faithful High Priest He is both the author (5:9) and finisher (12:2) of our faith. He is the forerunner for all those who believe in Him (6:20).

(2) Jesus is the Surety (7:22) of the New Covenant. As the equivalent of the co-signer of a bank loan, Jesus supplies the covenantal requirements that God expects when first named believers fails in their tasks. From God’s view, with Jesus as the surety, nothing is lacking in the covenantal arrangement.

(3) Jesus is able to save to the Uttermost (7:25) them that come to God through Himself.

(4) Jesus is the Mediator (8:6) of the New Covenant. As 100% God He is able to represent God in the mediation. He makes sure that God gets people that love Him, who are holy, unblemished and perfect. As 100% human He is able to represent humans. He makes sure that God is faithful to fulfill each of the seven covenantal clauses. Jesus keeps both sides in line.

(5) He is the author and FINISHER of the faith (12:1-2).

(6) He will never (never) leave us or forsake us 13:5)

So do we pit the Bible against the Bible? Your verses against mine?

- OR

do we harmonize them!


The five warnings are just warnings. There is no wording in them that says "kicked out of the family" "damnation" "hell" or the like. They are warnings about losing the rewards of intimate fellowship.

Bob would have us think
(1)Jesus as High Priest missed a few sins on the Cross
(2)Jesus is an unwilling, derelect, or bankrupt surety
(3)UTTERMOST is just the next big sin
(4)Jesus is an incompetent mediator
(5)Jesus can't finish what He starts or
(6)Jesus will leave for any number of reason.

Denial of OSAS is the equivalent of denying Jesus Himself. There will be many who cry "LORD! LORD!" but will be excluded.

Don't be an unwitting Christ denier.
Lloyd

 

Greetings

This was one of Bob's quotes in a lengthy and tremendously shallow posting. Stuff like this results only when one is locked into denominational self-righteous thinking.

The Rom 11 quote is violently yanked out of context. (How else could he use it?) It is part of a three chapter discussion of national Israel. Paul isn't talking about individuals losing their salvation, he is talking about Israel losing their favored status before God.

Note that losing favored status is not the equivalent of being "UN-elected." God will do wonderful things for them in the end.

Every one of Bob's so call "proofs" fails to stand if one examines context. But this is work and is harder than to cut and paste verses abused out of context into a string of "proofs."

Shameful exegesis. Bob can't stand an honest exchange on any one verse. Rebut one verse and he runs to the second. Rebut that verse and he runs to the third. Rebut the third verse and he returns to the first. An endless circle of shallow self-righteousness.

Justification is the key. Bob has no clue to correct thelogy on justification. Hence, he mindlessly grabs any sanctification verse and uses them as "proofs" of justification.

When one cannot understand justification, then one falls into many errors.
Lloyd

 

You are well on top of OSAS Lloyd, but I wouldn't go as far as to say those who can't grasp it are denying Christ.

We believe faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saves and this faith is not nullified because the believer cannot rightly divide the word of truth. I personally know more than a few born again believers who just can't come to agreement with me about their security in Christ. Some need to feel that threat of being kicked out in order to abstain from sins that they were once enslaved by. Some need to believe it because they don't like the fact that another brother is getting away with a sin, they would like to see him zapped, they think it unfair that he is allowed to sin and be saved while they do not sin ( at least they think they don't) to keep themselves saved.

Don't get me wrong, OSAS is very important to understand, for once one understands the worm that they are they will rely SOLELY on Jesus Christ for their redemption and confess before Him that their own efforts are as filthy rags before a Holy God.

When I realized that I was nothing more than a sinner saved by grace, then and only then did I turn fully to Christ and asked Him to clean up my life.

Did you ever hear the saying "God helps those who helps themselves"? I was always told this when I was little. As a matter of fact I thought it was a bible verse. It isn't and it isn't biblical either. God helps those who submit themselves to Jesus Christ and His Word, now this is biblical. Obeying brings blessings and fruits. Obeying does not secure a born again believers salvation. That was finished at rebirth. It is "the gift of God" and that means FREE to us because Jesus paid for it!

God Bless!

 

Greetings

Gasp. Another so-called “proof” violently yanked out of context. When will he ever learn to use his Bible?

The “if” clause modifies the presentation of the believer as holy, unblameable, and unreproveable. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is terrible exegesis to slice up a passage and pick and choose only what you want.

A significant clue can be seen in verse 21. They were once alienated. The word alienated (afllotriomenous) is in the Greek Perfect Tense (GPT). The basic explanation of this tense is that it denotes an action that was brought to completion and whose effects are felt in the present. The perfect tense isn’t the normal choice for even most Greek speakers. We must assume that there is a reason for its use whenever it occurs whether or not we understand it. The act of being alinenated happened in the past and continues in the present. Since the Greek Perfect Tense has no wiggle room for a cessation of the action, there must be a definitive statement that will specifically undo the action mentioned in the Greek Perfect Tense for it to stop. Here, there is a direct reference to reconciliation that stops the formerly continuous action! If there is no direct reference; there is no cessation of action!

The word reconciliation is an aorist. Paul is wishing to view past salvation as if it were a point event without emphasizing the continuance of the results of that point event. The believer is only inserted into Christ’s body by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) once. Nowhere in the Bible is there any language of being immersed into Christ a second time. Salvation is called the second birth – not the third birth or fourth birth.

Verse 22 shows that believers are inserted into the body of Christ in order to be presented holy, blameless, and irreproachable before God. The point event of justification needs a process of shaping. The goal of this shaping is rewards – not justification.

Verse 23 provides the biggest clue in this whole passage. The word grounded (tethemeliomenoi) is yet another Greek Perfect Tense. Note that there is no other construct that will undo this verb. The intent is that this act continues! Many of the significant passages in Scripture describing the new birth use the Greek Perfect Tense to highlight the permanence of that change. So the GPT implies that the Colossians were perfectly and continuously grounded in the faith from a past act of faith in Jesus Christ.
The outcomes of whether or not they continued in the faith had nothing whatsoever to do with their present reality of being completely and firmly grounded in Jesus Christ. This means that the outcomes of whether of not they continued in the faith had everything to do with their present reality of fellowship. Were they settled? Where they moved away from the gospel?
The presentation of the believers is equivalent to Eph 5:27 where the church is presented to God with almost the exact same words. The issue isn’t salvation but sanctification. The words holy, unblameable, and unreproveable are all three words that describe the process of Christian growth. The Christian’s growth is marked by up’s and down’s, varying degrees of faithfulness, and incomplete obedience at the best. This is sanctification.
If justification depended on our faithfulness, then no one would be saved. God tells us that even in our BEST state that we are but “vanity” (Psa 39:5). Paul declares that at the final judgment that everyone in the whole world will be so convinced of their own personal guilt that every mouth will be stopped (Rom 3:19). The Romans Road includes a verse that common-sense indicates that everyone falls short of God’s glory through sin and disobedience (Rom 3:23). If Christ hasn’t risen, then we are all “most pitiable” for we are still in our sins (1 Cor 15:17)! In Adam all die (1 Cor 15:22)! If justification depends in any little part on continued human faithfulness, then we all will fall short of the mark. God demands perfection and anything short of perfection will be judged. Unless we can claim Christ’s righteousness, it will be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God! Since no one (but Jesus) has been able to fulfill the law, how is it that the Sadvocates think so highly of human faithfulness?
When the apostles were faced with the very same corrupting view, they were quick to condemn it saying, “Why would you test God by adding the yoke of faithfulness which neither our fathers nor we were able to fulfill?” (Acts 15:10). If the negative response wasn’t enough they rephrased it positively saying, “Even we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner [of purifying faith (see verse 9)] as they.” (Acts 15:11).

It takes much more space to do good analysis than it does to simply lump a bunch of verses together without regard to context.

Don’t be an unwitting Christ-denier!
Lloyd

 

Greetings

You are right in what you say. I usually try to include the word "UNWITTING" with the truthful description.

Most such unwitting Christ-deniers I know also rely upon their water baptism. The two errors seem to go together. If the unwitting Christ-denier is trusting in their water baptism, then the forecast is for intense heat.

If, however, the unwitting Christ-denier truly has placed their faith in Jesus, then they are just ignorant of basic Bible truths as you have suggested.

OSAS is the single best test of theology. It reveals one's position on justification. If one's justification is based on Jesus alone, then one usually holds to OSAS. If one has the Catholic theology of self-righteous works, then one usually denies OSAS.

Is there a third position?
Nope!

Good post!
Lloyd

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Col 1:21-23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gasp! - no quote at all from Col 1 to backup that accusation for Lloy. Oh well.

Lets look at Col 1 "anyway" and "see" if it is really not talking salvation as it urges the saints to remain faithful.

(And lets also note that we had a LOT of texts warning the saints to remain faithful and endure firm until the end).

The text above as been shown to be utterly devastating to the OSAS teaching that one need not worry about losing salvation or enduring firm until the end since “failure is not possible”. Indeed the question is raised by “some” so as to created doubt that this “IF indeed you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established, steadfast and NOT moved away” is speaking about salvation in any way shape or form. Let us “see”.

Notice vs 21 IS talking about the UNSAVED experience.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

This can hardly be denied even by the most ardent OSAS promoter.

Then the transition to the SAVED state is absolutely and explicitly the focus in vs 22

Denial of this obvious point also seems “impossible” even for the OSAS group.

He has “now” reconciled you – references the saved experience of Justification – UNION with Christ by which we are “reconciled to God” Romans 5:1 to argue that this is not a salvation topic would be beyond reason.

The result and goal of our salvation is in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

Again – an obvious salvation topic/result/goal. One that we “Can NOT do without” or consider “optional in salvation”.

But then Paul points out that this salvific results is “contingent” on something.

So are we to suppose that the “negative” of this contingency is “salvation anyway”?

If we are “not established, and NOT steadfast and ARE moved away from the hope of the Gospel” does this text tell us that “we are reconciled and still presented as holy and blameless Regardless of the contingency IT specifically points to?

Far from it!

Rather that idea would need to be eisegeted back into the text for the warning – the contingency and the LINK to the salvific essentials of the gospel can not be denied!

-----------------------------------------

The point remains!

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is a fallacy on several grounds.

#1. "Holy and blameless" are attributes not rewards.

#2. The fact that this Gospel salvific RESULT is the goal of the gospel rather than arguing that Justification is the GOAL of the Gospel -- is not a proof supoprting the idea that this is "optional". In fact it is ESSENTIAL.

There is in fact NTHER result for salvation mentioned in the text. Yet the argument against it presumes that the text is SUPPORTING failure for the GOAL mentioned in Vs 21 and YET STILL being reconciled.

No such bifurcated logic is present in the text though one clearly needs to eiseget it INTO the text if one is to believe in OSAS "anyway".

So basically - you have introduced a rabbit trail that is totally unsupported in the text.

You are merely making the Arminian point that FUTURE failure does not invalidate PRESENT salvation as the Calvinist 5Pt argument would have it.

Which means - you have done nothing (once again) to find a way out of the problem for OSAS.

The Arminian view of salvation that denies the speculative conclusions of OSAS does NOT require that present salavation or justification past be "retro-deleted" as 5 point Calvinists have insisted.

So you ARE saved today - but can be lost ten years from today when you fail to persevere. This does NOT change the fact that you ARE saved today and are justified today.

Adam and Eve were sinless holy and perfect as created. When they fell - it did not retro delete or retro-negate the prior sinless holy state.

So "again" - you simply introduced a rabbit trail in an failed effort to obfuscate the point but have not actually supported your own argument or made a point of proof agains the affirmative that the contigency and associate warning ARE fully applicable to the salvific goals stated EXPLICITLY in the text!

Perhaps you would like another shot at actually exegeting the text of Col 1 in such a way as to make your point for OSAS?

You know - "good analysis" that stays on point and shows a logical framework that will hold up to make the case for OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Three thumbs up! Right on Bro. Ascund!

 

This rabbit trail is also not suggested in the text.

Nothing is said here in the form "IF you are steadfast THEN you will ENDURE" as some have bent the text to say. (Arguing AS IF the translators did not know Greek or the reader does not know how to read). Nor does it say “IF you were really reconciled THEN you will surely endure and continue in faith firmly established and not moved”

In fact it argues the devastating point about FAILURE to remain steadfast and the danger of being MOVED AWAY. This requires that one WAS steadfast and WAS positioned correctly IN Christ. In other words the problem being warned about is NOT the former position!

More devastatingly, it is a warning that CAN NOT apply if the former position is error or wickedness since being "moved away" from wickedness is a GOOD THING!

So getting back to the text itself - it argues devastatingly that EVEN THOUGH we have the AFFIRMATIVE for having been reconciled we STILL (in that CONTEXT of affirming past reconciliation) have a contigency on future Gospel salvific results (Holy and Blameless and accepted by God) bearing JUST as we saw in 1Cor 9 and the many other references!

So The point remains -- "still".

Conclusion - without having actually turned the text from where it obviously points as I have noted - you have failed to provide support for your argument from Col 1.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 03, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

OSAS

 

This is the same confused point again supposing that past justification is "retro-deleted". It is not.

As pointed out in the case of Adam - the PREVIOUS state of acceptance and fellowhsip with God is REAL -- EVEN though on fails to endure in the future.

This point can not be any more obvious, simple - easy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The issue is not whether saints "need forgiveness" or "need to be saved".

The issue is the grounds for ignoring texts like Col 1:21-23 or the others listed here (posting again to refresh those who would just as soon forget them).

The issue is whether to listen to the warnings they contain without having to "rewrite them" as you have tried to do.

The issue is whether to listen to Paul say that we are not to be deceived into thinking that "The wicked go to heaven" or into ignoring the words of Christ warning that "IT is NOT those that SAY Lord Lord but everyone who DOES the will of My Father"... Matt 7.

It points out that ALL NEED forgiveness and aLL NEED salvation.

AFTER having JUST POINTED out "in context" that "IT IS NOT the HEARERS that are JUSTIFIED but the DOERS of the LAW WILL BE justified" Rom 2:11-13 - in that impartial judgment process of God where the failing cases AND THE SUCCEEDING cases listed in Romans 2 will be the result!

The point where we focus on the Col 1:21-23 argument for endurance and faithfulness as promoted by Scripture - is the right place to attack it if you intend to go after the heart of God's Word on this point.

The list of texts will be posted again - so you may have more openings.

Well then I vote that you take the space and do it - because your argument could use some.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The point was recently made that these texts of scripture are the texts to be read by the "Sadvocates" who think these warnings about faithfulness and endurance are "applicable" to saints.

I have pointed out that if one is to attack the concept of the contigency language used to motivate "perseverance" and "endurance" and "faithfulness in the future" is to be attacked - then these are the texts to go after with a vengence.

Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!

These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

I would also point out that IF another argument for OSAS is to be that we are all failures and NO Gospel is possible that demands that the fruits of the Gospel in the life of the saints be evaluated objectively in judgment -- then here are more texts to delete with a vengence.


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a
pure heart fervently:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Romans 2

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.
=======================================================================================================

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

2Cor 5:10

[/quote]

 

And of course nothing would please me more than to go after that quote above in Romans 2 with "an eye for detail" but I have given too much Bible proof here in support for my position.

I will wait for some reply.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Obviously there are some things the
ONCE SAVED person will do that will be
different from one who has never been saved
will do. And there are many scriptures as
a guide for the saved person.

There are three facets to salvation:
1. justification
2. scantification
3. glorification

For the saved who still live these are:

1. PAST - justification salvation
2. PRESENT - scantification salvation
3. FUTURE - gloricication salvation

Recall the meanings:

1. justification - literally "just as if
i'd" never sinned, initial salvation
when we are forgived of all past sins

2. scantification - the daily cleaning
of the person from the daily contamination
of the world and the old sinful nature

3. glorification - We shall be glorified
along with Jesus at the pretribulation rapture
(the living are raptured, the dead are
resurrected, all the saved are glorified)

Here is the one who does the action
for each facet of salvation:

1. justification is in Jesus, the Messiah
2. scantification is in Jesus, the Messiah
3. glorification is in Jesus, the Messiah

One you get saved BY JESUS, if you get
saved BY JESUS, then you will cooperate
with Jesus in the scantification or daily
cleaning. Just as my physical body gets
dirty & stinky and i need to to wash it from
time to time (to avoid offending myself
and others) - so it is witht he spiritual
man.

We are saved to good words,
we are not saved by good works.

BTW, every time in the past 21 years on the
internet (and it's precussors) that i've started
a Topic on Christian boards for the discussion
of "how to do good works", the thread has
soon fizzled after 3 or 4 pages (if that many).
Evidently people really don't want to
study how to do good works

So it looks like those in error about OSAS
not being true, are the only one who can
sustain a converstaion about how to do good
works. Yep, they are running scared, afraid
that they are going to slip out of God's hands
if they mess up.

But the same token, i can prove by scripture
that a person who uses their freedom in
Christ as an occations to sin HAVE NOT BEEN
SAVED YET.

 

I note that while you got
a crick in yo' neck patting yourself on the
back that i was writting a post which
puts to rest your whole argument.

Joh 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue
his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer
beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue euerlasting life.

Sorry, yo-yo salvation AKA: in-again-out-again savlation,
is just NOT 'everlasting life'.
Once Saved by Jesus one is always saved by Jesus.

But those who are saved will live like they
know all the nice verses that were posted
above this one.

 

EVen so the texts above make the case FOR STAYING in their motivation for endurance.

They are not arguing for MOVING to salvation because the unsaved fail to ENDURE in their wickedness and fail to STAY unsaved.

The texts are quite clear

 

Hey Bob Ryan

You posted this on another venue where I showed your contextual errors. Here, you mindlessly post the same rubbish.

Is this how you get so many posts - ignore a genuine exchange and just keep dumping posts abused by contextual violations?

If you want a serious study, then you need to begin with justification. This does NOT mean running to your denominational library and pulling out a Catholic Encyclopedic definition. Those definitions miss the key aspects of tense and voice. If you can practice what you preach, I'll be expecting some scholarly attempt at a lexical analysis of "justification."

Do it if you can.
Until then, I will repeatedly inform you of your uninformed shallow responses. Ten Thousand messages that have never been founded on an honest study of God's Word. That is truly amazing.

Lloyd