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Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Mar 9, 2024.

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  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The exhortation of 2 Cor 13:5 has more to do with examining ones doctrine, the faith. Sure practical living is good, however many false religions can produce that, but what they cannot copy is the true doctrine of Christ, the Faith. Just like in Jude 1:3

    Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Faith has the definite article emphasizing the body of truth.

    Like Titus 1:13

    This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

    See True conversion only believes the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus, the Doctrine of Christ.
     
    #41 Brightfame52, Apr 30, 2024
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    But hearing the gospel precedes the sanctification.
    John 17:17, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13, . . . chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . .
     
    #42 37818, Apr 30, 2024
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The difficult part (the part that causes disagreements) is that we do not know if he was addressing Jewish Chriatians or a Jewish congregation.

    We see this with Paul quite often (writing to a church, assured of their beliefs, but at the same time addressing issues related to "Christians" that are not truly believers).

    I interpret the passage as referring to a Jewish congregation, pointing to those still lost, to the extent they had partaken of the Holy Spirit but not necessarily saved.

    This is similar to Israel, partaking of God's gifts, maintaining a hope of the Messiah, but turning back when the Messiah had come.


    The issue I have with viewing tge verse as applying to Chriatians is only with those who apply part (falling away) to Christians without the remainder (that it is final).

    If applied to Jews it would mean that the faith towards which they return is one of seeking a Messiah (and Christ will not be re-crucified).

    If applied to believers then one abandoning their faith, it seems, would be a final state (which is a possibility).


    I think the difference is in how we consider the audience.
     
    #43 JonC, Apr 30, 2024
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Brightfame52,
    Unless that sanctification precedes both the belief or rejection of the truth, then that Arminian argument would be a proof the saved can become lost with what would be a proof text, Hebrews 10:29, . . . counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, . . . .
     
    #44 37818, Apr 30, 2024
  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Words can be used different ways and there is a sense in which sanctification comes first in that God has separated out those who he is going to save. That was Owen's take on it and it is very Calvinistic.
     
    #45 DaveXR650, Apr 30, 2024
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What was Owen's argument?

    But it being pro general atonement argument in that the nonbeliever . . . counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, . . .
     
    #46 37818, Apr 30, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2024
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    OK. I see what you are saying in that you could take that to mean that the no one is excluded by a limited atonement. I agree. Just so you understand that in the Calvinistic scheme of things the first thing that happens is that God has chosen and separated out those who he is saving. And "sanctification" is the word used to show that. It is different from the progressive sanctification where we as Christians try to conform ourselves to Christ as a result of having a new nature. I don't mean to contradict you so much as to suggest there may be more common ground than you think.
     
    #47 DaveXR650, Apr 30, 2024
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That has the presupposition of the election. What is true is the choosing, Ephesians 1:4, . . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . . And is supposed that it is the election.
     
    #48 37818, Apr 30, 2024
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    So a unregenerate spiritually dead person can spiritually hear the Gospel with Spiritual understanding ?
     
    #49 Brightfame52, Apr 30, 2024
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I believe sanctification of the Spirit is regeneration by the Spirit. I dont believe a regenerate person rejects the Gospel, but believes it 2 Thess 2:13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    And Heb 10:29 is about Christ having been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, Christ as High Priest offered Himself and that denoted sanctifying himself Jn 17:19

    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
     
    #50 Brightfame52, Apr 30, 2024
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    .
    Ephesians 2:1-5, . . . And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
     
    #51 37818, Apr 30, 2024
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You prove you didn't understand my argument. And I can't do anything about that.
     
    #52 37818, Apr 30, 2024
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Okay great passage.
     
    #53 Brightfame52, May 1, 2024
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    If you say so, but I believe I understood it and responded appropriately
     
    #54 Brightfame52, May 1, 2024
  15. MMDAN

    MMDAN New Member

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    I was not implying that 2 Corinthians 13:5 has less to do with one's doctrine, the faith, and I understand that true conversion only believes the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus, the Doctrine of Christ. False religions may claim to be of the faith and even try to produce and copy the fruit of the Spirit, but moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.
     
    #55 MMDAN, May 2, 2024
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No.

    14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 cor 2
     
    #56 kyredneck, May 2, 2024
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  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Time to clarify the OP!... Brother Glen:)

    Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
     
    #57 tyndale1946, May 5, 2024
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  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    More evidence... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
    #58 tyndale1946, May 10, 2024
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