Once saved, always saved??

Ed, again, is Rom 10:9 (like John 3:16) talking about a one-time belief or an ongoing belief? You said "And BTW, you will continue to believe in Jesus, your Lord and Savior." Really? I hope so. But some people don't (Luke 8:13, 2 Tim 2:13), it is not uncommon for people to believe one thing and years later believe something different.

 

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

 

“God forbid!”

I'm sorry, Russ, but I am not God, and I do not know why they are not, I only know that they are not because the Bible says that they are not.

Russ,

You have a vivid imagination. You could probably make a lot of money writing fantasy comics.

Acts 2:38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 1:13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph. 4:30. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor. 3:15. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16. but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

(All Scriptures from the NASB, 1995)

Where do you see the doctrine of eternal security in any of these verses? The Holy Spirit is a gift and a seal of ownership, but, in New Testament times, even gifts bearing a seal of ownership could be, and frequently were, returned. Christians have a free will; otherwise there would be no such thing as temptations. We have a choice, everyday, to walk with Jesus, or to walk away from him. Where is that verse in the Bible that says that Jesus put a dog’s collar and leash upon believers in him? If Christians had no choice but to be faithful to Jesus, how would our being so bring any glory to God? Christians DO HAVE A CHOICE to be faithful or not, and their choosing to be faithful, even in times of severe testing, brings much glory to God.

 

Woody,

The Greek text of John 3:16 is a proof text for conditional, rather than eternal, security.

John 3:16. Houtos gar egapesen ho Theos ton kosmon, hoste ton Huion ton monogene edoken, hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletai all eche zoen aionion.

Indeed, this is such a powerful proof text for conditional security that A. T. Robertson and Dana and Mantey go to great lengths in their Greek Grammars to “prove” that we have in John 3:16 an exception to the normal use of the Greek present participle. That’s right, you guessed it, A. T. Robertson and Dana and Mantey were all Baptists who believed in eternal security .

 

Every time i read this passage
it has the Greek present participle in it.
Every time i read this passage in the past
SINCE I FIRST CALLED JESUS my Lord, it has
the Greek present participle in it.
Someday soon, perchance at the pretribulation
rapture I'll remember this verse and it
will still have the Greek present participle
in it.

Sorry, "eternal", even if Greek present participle
means from now on WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

 

Craig
It's the "comic book writer" again. You are starting to sound more funny and less serious. We ought to go camping together and stay up all night solving the theological problems of the world. Ha!

1 Cor 3:14-17
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

My fanciful Baptist imagination tells me that these texts show that a true believer can backslide and still be saved -- though barely.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You failed to comment on these texts. "You are not your own! You are bought with a price!" Sounds pretty clear to me. Accepting Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior means transferring ownership of your body to God!!! How can you possibly dispute that???

Therefore --therefore-- since my body is not my own, THEN I cannot decide to take it away from God in order to fall from grace. Neither you nor I are strong enough to pry God's property out of His hands.

The true believer will suffer definite discipline, even to the point of death. That is how God restores from fallen FELLOWSHIP (not fallen relationship).

There is no mention in the New Covenant of any believer requiring RE-BAPTISM or being SAVED AGAIN because neither is necessary.

John 4:13 Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again.

The PUNCTILIAR, one time, Greek AORIST action of "drink" in John 4:13 secures the eternal spring of the HOly Spirit. Otherwise, "NEVER" is a lie and a sin by Jesus (God forbid).

 

Once saved always saved. Yes. I beleive it. Once you are TRULY saved the Holy Spirit in within you and noone can PLUCK you out of the Heavenly Fathers' hand. If you are truly saved then it's case closed.

 

Brother Russ,

I truly appreciate the fact that you can think, and do a good job of it. I find that somewhat refreshing! Perhaps we should go camping together and enjoy the fellowship (I don’t suppose you own a new, 42 foot air-conditioned motor home with two queen-size beds and a Jacuzzi?) .

My fanciful Baptist imagination also tells me that these texts show that a true believer can backslide and still be saved -- though barely.

It sounds pretty clear to me also. Accepting Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior means transferring ownership of your body to God!!! How can I possibly dispute that??? Answer: I don’t, but every time a Christian sins he is reclaiming his body, at least for a moment. Some Christians decide to reclaim and keep it for good, and, as we see in the Scriptures, God permits this. Without the free will to love and be obedient, or to hate and disobey, Christians are mere puppets and God is not glorified.

 

John 4:13. Apekrithe Iesous kai eipen aute, "Pas ho pinon ek tou hudatos toutou dipsesei palin.

Russ, the Greek word translated “drinketh” in John 4:13 is not an aorist verb! It is a present participle. Perhaps you mean the cognate verb in John 4:14 where the tense is the active aorist in the subjunctive mood.

John 4:14. Hos dan pie ek tou hudatos hou ego doso auto, ou-medipsesei eis ton aiona! Alla to hudor ho dosoauto genesetai en auto pege hudatos hallomenou eiszoen aionion!"^

John 4:13. Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14. but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (NASB, 1995)

Again, the context is very important to the correct understanding of verses 13-14:

5. So He *came to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph;
6. and Jacob's well was there. So Jesus, being wearied from His journey, was sitting thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
The Woman of Samaria
7. There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, "Give Me a drink."
8. For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9. Therefore the Samaritan woman *said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
10. Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
11. She *said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12. "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?"
13. Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14. but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
15. The woman *said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."
16. He *said to her, "Go, call your husband and come here."
17. The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus *said to her, "You have correctly said, 'I have no husband';
18. for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly."
19. The woman *said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
20. "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
21. Jesus *said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22. "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23. "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
25. The woman *said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26. Jesus *said to her, "I who speak to you am He. "
27. At this point His disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, "What do You seek?" or, "Why do You speak with her?"
28. So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and *said to the men,
29. "Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?"
30. They went out of the city, and were coming to Him.

We see here that Jesus is sharing the Gospel with the woman at the well and He tells her about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Certainly the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a PUNCTILIAR event rather than a CONTINUOUS process, but the Bible tells us very clearly that being baptized in the Holy Spirit does not guarantee that the one who receives the baptism will be faithful to Christ nor does it guarantee that the one who receives it will be saved in the end.

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)

 

Cix,

Welcome to the Baptist Board! I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and you to us!

 

Ed Edwards,

 

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

The one that does not believe in eternal security or believes that salvation can be lost, really does not understand salvation very well.
Jesus said in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
Again, he said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We are all born of the flesh. That is how we got here. I cannot change the facts of who my parents are. I can change my name, try and disinherit them, be angry with them, etc. But the fact will always remain the same. My mother will always be my mother, and my father, my father. Those two things will never change. That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
There is another thing I cannot change. I cannot change the sin nature that I have inherited. I am by nature a sinner, born to do wrong. I was never taught how to lie. I didn't have to be taught. It is in my nature to do so.

I cannot change on my own. Reformation is not regeneration; but regeneration is what I need. Jesus said I need to be born again. Through my sin nature I was born once: physically. Now I needed to be born again: spiritually. I needed to trust Christ as my Saviour and allow Him by the power of His Holy Spirit to come and dwell in my, thereby making me a new creature in Christ. When I did that many years ago, I was saved, or born again. I became a child of God. God adopted me into His family, made me his heir, and a joint heir with Jesus Christ.
In as much as I can never change the fact that my genetic father and mother will always remain my earthly physical parents, I can never change the fact that if I am truly born again, my Heavenly Father will always be my Heavenly Father. He doesn't lie. He has no need to lie. He has promised to all who believe in Him eternal life. Shall we then call Him a liar, and say that His promise is not true. Once I am part of the family of God, I am always His child. I cannot be "unborn." It is impossible.

John 5:24, "He who hears my word and believes on him who sent me has everlasting life."
That is a straightforward promise from Christ himself. The verbs are in the present tense. If you believe you have or are possessing eternal life. It is yours right now.
"And shall not fall into condemnation." Christ strengthens His promise. Belief in Him will never cause one to come into eternal condemnation.
"But is passed from death unto life." Again, he strengthens what he has already promised. Again it is in present tense. He is passed (right now) from death to life. Right now (at the moment of belief) I am passed from eternal death to eternal life, from spiritual death to spiritual life. One can never lose their salvaion. To think otherwise is not having a correct view of soteriology.

The aspect of God's love is tremendous.
Romans 5:8, "God demonstrated his toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." The great demonstration of God's love for us, was the death of Christ for our sin on the cross of Calvary. Even though we were sinners deserving of nothing but eternal damnation, Christ came and died for our sins anyway. The wonderful truth in that is that He didn't have to. We didn't deserve it, neither were we worth dying for.
That last statement really hurts a lot of people because so many are wrapped up in self. But that is true--we weren't worth dying for. That brings one to the question then, Why did God (Christ) die for our sns?
Is it because He loves US?
Or is it because HE loves us?

There is a distinction. He doesn't love us because we are worthy of His love. Our worth varies. It depreciates. It changes over time.
However God IS Love. His love never changes. He is immutable. He is the same: yesterday, today, and forever. If you lay hold of this one truth--that God loves you for WHO HE is, and not for who WE are, then perhaps you can understand why our salvation is secure in Christ. He never changes.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God loves you. He has promised eternal life to all who believe on Him. And God never changes. Therein lies eternal security.
DHK

 

DHK,

Surely you can not be serious! This verse does not include the slight hint of eternal security. Indeed, the Greek text of this verse is often cited as a proof text for conditional security.

24. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (NASB, 1995)

24. Amen amen lego humin hoti hoton logon mou akouon kai pisteuon to Pempsanti meechei zoen aionion kai eis krisin ouk erchetai, allametabebeken ek tou thanatou eis ten zoen.

Notice that the Greek words translated “hears” and “believes” are both present participles referring to continuous rather than punctiliar action, and that the Greek word translated “has” is in the present indicative tense. According to this verse, those persons who are continuing to hear the words of our Lord Jesus, and continuing to believe the Father who sent Him are continuing to have eternal life.

A. T. Robertson and Dana and Mantey recognize the problem that this and similar verses poses to the doctrine of eternal security, and they claim in their respective Greek grammars that these verses are an exception to the normal use of the Greek present participle and the Greek present indicative tense, but that is only because they believe in the doctrine of eternal security and the normal reading of the Greek text does not allow for that interpretation. This matter is discussed in detail in some of the better commentaries on John’s Gospel.

 

The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.
God gave eternal life at the point of salvation. It is not an ongoing process and could never be. It is a logical impossibility. Eternal means eternal. If eternal could be lost, it would no longer be eternal it would only be temporary and God would be found to be a liar. In John 10:27-30 Jesus says: "I give unto you eternal life." He says this many times throughout the gosple of John as He does in John 5:24. At the conclusion of the Book of John he tells us that the entire purpose of the writing of the book was that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that by believing, ye might have eternal life. It is a gift of God. It cannot be taken away. If it could, God would be a liar, for eternal would no longer be eternal. Words have meanings.
DHK

 

Now that the OSAS crowd has "won" this debate,
would we like to start a discussion of why
we are to do good works?

Saved from sin; saved to good works.
Saved by Grace; saved for good works.

Hebrews 10:24 (HCSB):
And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,

James 3:13 (HCSB):
Who is wise and understanding among you? He should show his works by good conduct with wisdom's gentleness.

James 2:22 (HCSB):
You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

Matthew 5:16 (HCSB):
In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

2:10 (HCSB):
For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


1 Timothy 6:18 (HCSB):
Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous, willing to share,

Titus 3:1 (HCSB):
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,

 

Ed Edwards said "Now that the OSAS crowd has "won" this debate"

Finally, after centuries of debate, the matter is settled. And to think you and I were part of it! Our names will surely go down in church history.

 

Probably much like
Westcott/Hort

I can see it now: Natters/ed the
past tense of "natters"

 

Craig
You are correct, I meant to refer to John 4:14, not 4:13. "Whosoever DRINKS (aorist punctilliar one time event) this water will NEVER THIRST."

If one could fall from grace, then this stateement by Jesus would be incorrect because the fallen person would again thirst for God's Spirit.

Craig and DKH
You both missed the part about John 5:24 which is most definitive. "Has crossed over (metabebeeken) is PERFECT TENSE just like "it is written." The PERFECT tense signifies once for all time completed action which stands in the past, present and future. Shame on you, Craig, for not pointing this out -- no dessert tonight.

JOhn 3:16 is not so easily dismissed either. When the believer professes faith in Christ in the NOW, God reaches to the end of time and pronounces upon him the VERDICT of the final judgment, which is EVERLASTING LIFE. It would be sily for God to do that if He did not really meant it and would change his verdict.

Your resPonse abouT 1 Cor 6:19,20 is also weak. You portray a puny and weak mortal man overpowering the HOly Spirit and grabbing God's property out of God's hand. Once the body is bought, owned AND INDWELT by God -- why would God allow us to steal HIS PROPERTY?

 

Craig
This thread is not abaout "once saved, always faithful." It is about "once saved, always saved."

Your dialog about those who fell in the wilderness in 1 Cor 10 assumes incorrectly that they lost their salvation. The Bible does not say that! They had been covered by the blood of the Passover Lamb, they had been baptized in the Red Sea and they had been given rules for sanctificed living at Sinai.

They sinned, they were severely punished, and they died -- including Moses himself!!! Do you actually think that only Joshua and Caleb were truly God's children??? Poor Moses -- what a waste!

 

Why are you arguing with God? Or don't you believe that John 5:24 is His inspired word?