Featured "Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son."

Amazing how you always claim to have dealt with what is posted but you never deal with what is posted.

Point out what verses you think support your view. Saying read chapters XYZ does not help you. But it does show that you are unable to support your view with clear scripture. You have been asked to proved scripture and you use a shotgun approach in the vain hope you might hit something that looks good.

 

Dave, when a person is regenerated (born again) that person is saved. That means an unbeliever is saved even though he does not believe.

That is not Scriptural.

I appreciate you seeking some commonality. I would like to see that too, but Calvinists will never give up their cherished TULIP theology, and I personally am unable to give up what I read in my King James Bible. I can love the Calvinists, I can respect them, but I cannot agree with them when they teach (as I was raised) that faith (belief) is not necessary--God saves you apart from faith, apart from belief, and then somewhere down the line, even many years later, you end up believing.

"By grace are ye saved, through faith..." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins",

There's a big reason I really dislike Calvinist/non-Calvinist discussions. It divides Christians, AND it's gone on for over 500 years and settled NOTHING, and if the Lord tarries, it will go on for 5000 years and still settle nothing. There is NO PROFIT in it, and we are warned against it in Paul's epistles. What we NEED TO BE DOING is preaching Scripture exactly as written, for e.g., Acts 2:21, Acts 10:43, Romans 10:9-13, John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-10, etc., and do not try to explain away with all those secret gnostic-type additions from Augustine and Calvin and Sproul and Washer. Just preach the Bible as written, not as "interpreted to mean such-and-such". THEN, when we arrive in Heaven, if God wants to tell us those I just listed were on the ball, fine, we'll say, "Well Lord, I just preached it exactly as You wrote it", and proceed on into eternity.

I'd rather do that than Him to tell me, "You guys argued for 500 years among each other instead of preaching the Gospel to the lost." God's Word doesn't return void but accomplishes what it was sent for. It either:

1. Convicts and converts the heathen, pagans, atheists, everyday common sinners,

OR

2. it condemns them because they heard the Word of God and rejected it.

But if we spend another 500 years arguing, "...how shall they hear without a preacher?"

 

In practice there really is a lot of common ground. I'm most familiar with the world of Reformed Baptist churches and if you look on their websites they almost never mention the TULIP and don't usually go further than saying salvation if all of grace, if they even say that. You mention Paul Washer. I've got his e-book "Ten Inditements Against the Modern Church". In reading that I don't see anything that pushes the TULIP or the idea that you don't have to come to Christ by faith. He does knock "the Sinner's prayer" maybe more than I would and he is definitely against the idea of the perpetual "Carnal Christian". But Washer seems to have a high regard for Wesley and groups like the Moravians.

As far as missionary work, the Calvinists are well represented historically, maybe more than anyone else. Almost all the great missionary societies and movements were Calvinist in origin. Among locals, the Reformed Baptists I know of put a high priority on missions and individual sharing of the gospel. I do think the IFB's do well there too though.

You know, on a theology discussion board we go back and forth. I learn stuff and think it's useful but I hope none of us run around our churches arguing this all the time. We would end up like "Talkative" in Pilgrim's Progress. He was a mess.

 

Still run to the same arguments don't you? If what you said was biblical then we would not be disagreeing now would we. Your view of scripture does not comport with scripture so I point out your error.

 

Dave, I have never heard of an IFB church that is Calvinist.

 

Austin I do not disagree with those verses, what I disagree with is your view of what those verses means. You look at everything through your deterministic lens which is not a biblical view. You keep saying God is sovereign so why do you not want to allow Him to be. To say that God can not allow for true free will is to deny God is sovereign. Do you not understand that? God has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son but you keep saying that would make faith a work even what the Holy Spirit through Paul has told you it is not a work. Why do you keep denying scripture?

Here are some of the verses you openly deny
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Austin you do not need to trust what I say but you need to trust what the Holy Spirit has said. Are you going to continue to deny the clear truth of scripture so as to hold to your errant philosophy that stems from pagan roots?

 

The difference between the Calvinist, definition of sovereign, and my understanding of sovereign is this:

The Calvinist thinks God is controlling. My understanding is God is in control.

The Calvinist definition means we are robots and can do nothing that God doesn’t cause us to do. They don’t say it in those words, but they say that everything is predestinated, so it’s the same thing.

The definition I understand, however, makes allowance for man to exercise his will and therefore makes man responsible for his wrong choices, and means God is not responsible for man’s wrong choices. Because God is in control however, He can move any way He wants to, to affect any situation He chooses to.

God is always in control, not necessarily controlling—we have enough rope to hang ourselves—yet He never loses control. He is The Sovereign—The Master—The Boss—The Lord. And He, as The Sovereign, has determined to allow mankind the degree of leeway that suits Him. That’s because He IS sovereign. It’s His choice, His will, how much liberty to allow us.

 

Please indicate where I said God "leaves you to yourself"? I don't recall ever saying that nor implying it in the least.

 

@MrW did not say we determine our salvation as only God can save. But as normal you twist what people say so that it fits your view. Not what I would call a Christian attitude there Austin.

"God is always in control, not necessarily controlling—we have enough rope to hang ourselves—yet He never loses control. He is The Sovereign—The Master—The Boss—The Lord. And He, as The Sovereign, has determined to allow mankind the degree of leeway that suits Him. That’s because He IS sovereign. It’s His choice, His will, how much liberty to allow us." MrW

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

You seem to think that man can not have a positive thought regarding Christ Jesus so that they would actually trust in Him for their salvation. The bible continues to show you that your view is wrong jet you will grab out of context verses in the attempt to support your view.

Austin for someone that keeps claiming that God is sovereign you sure do not want to let Him be sovereign.

 

Austin "thinks" he has God locked into Calvin's box.

 

Austin you are actually funny. You claim God is sovereign then turn around and do not allow Him to be sovereign. You are on mixed up character. Your determinism is your downfall. You have more faith in the pagan roots of your philosophy than you do in the Holy Spirit breathed word of God.

 

He never has.

“I find no fault in Him.”

You want a God in a box of your own making. I’ve got news for you. His ways and His thoughts are higher than yours, as the Heavens are above the Earth. He has no counselor.

 

I have a dog. I am sovereign over my dog. He eats when I feed him; drinks when I give him water, and he lives in my backyard. He has his own bedroom (garage) and he enters it when I tell him to.

He loves to go camping. When I take him camping, I put him on a leash with a 20 foot radius, therefore he can roam at his will for a diameter of 40 feet. Do I lose my sovereignty because I give him limited freedom of choice? No, I do not.

God has everyone of us on a leash. We can go so far and no further. Our heartbeat is in His hands. With barely a thought He can bring us home, or send us to eternity with satan and his angels. God did not lose His sovereignty when He put me on a leash in this world, nor did I become sovereign over anything except what HE put under ME, according as He willed. Therefore, He always was, is, and always will be the Sovereign Lord and I have, and will always have, the liberty He chooses for me to have. "Where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty."