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Open Theism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marooncat79, May 24, 2024.

  1. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol, where we going? I think something went wrong with your post. :) (Good and needed topic though)
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    One word to describe Open Theism HERESY
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Open Theism is the wrong explaination for limited omniscience. Such as Genesis 22:12, . . . And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from Me. . . .
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    there is no such thing of God having any "limited omniscience", this is Blatant Heresy!

    Are you supposing, that the Speaker here, Jesus Christ, only KNEW at this time that Abraham feared God?

    It is like the language used by YHWH in Genesis 18

    "20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

    It is complete nonsense to suppose, that God did not KNOW if the sin of "Sodom and Gomorrah is great", and that He had to come down to earth to be sure!

    The language used in these places is not to be taken in the literal human sense. God is ALWAYS

    Omniscient
    Omnipresent
    Omnipotent

    This is True of the Three distinct Persons in the Trinity.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 22:12, . . . for now I know . . . God the Father always knew!

    Mark 13:32, . . . But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. . . .

    The Son was always the Son.

    Acts of the Apostles 1:7, . . . to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Not open theism.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since Calvinism claims God is not the author of sin, then their theology is "open theisim"
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Please explain your logic here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    In a way that makes sense. In the debate between White and Craig they both took credit for their side for the story of Joseph's brothers and how it fit their respective systems. That surprised me as I thought that would be a slam dunk for Calvinism.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    In the Old Testament, there are passages that seem to show, that Yahweh Himself “does not know” certain things.

    In Genesis chapter 3, we read in verse 9, “Yahweh God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?””. How comes Yahweh needs to ask Adam, “where are you?”, As Yahweh is Omniscient, and should have KNOWN? Why do we read in Genesis 9:16, “The rainbow will be in the cloud. I will look at it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”. WHY does God need to be REMINDED about His Everlasting Covenant, by having to place a Rainbow in the sky? Likewise, in Acts 10:4 we read, ““Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God”. The word “memorial”, is from “mnēmosunon”, which means, “a reminder, remembrance”. In Genesis 18:20-21, it reads: “Then Yahweh said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to Me. And if not, I will know”. Why does Yahweh say, that He has “to go down and see”, if the outcry that is against Sodom and Gomorrah, is as bad as it is, “and if not, I will know”? Surely, as the All-Knowing God, He must have “known” about this without the need to visit the place? What does this passage mean for the Omniscience of God? What does all of this say about the ALL-KNOWING God of the Holy Bible? Are we to conclude, that God is not “Omniscient” in the full sense of the word, but has a “limited knowledge”? In Isaiah 43:25 it says, “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins”, and elsewhere. Are we to assume, that God does literally FORGET about our sins? How can an Omniscient God, actually ever FORGET anything?

    What do you think of these examples?
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Open theism says God has not predestined everything, such as our each and every sin. Closed theism says God has predestined everything, which is called "Exhaustive Determinism" and is false doctrine. The Bible says things happen by chance, and we can make choices. If our actions are all predestined, then we never actually have a choice.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Bible nullifiers seem to secretly claim, God sets before us the illusion of choice, rather than an actual choice where we alter the outcome of our lives if we choose life.

    Does Open Theism claim God does not predestine certain outcomes? Nope.

    Does God declare the end from the beginning? You bet!

    Does the Bible say things happen by chance? You bet.

    So the actual biblical reality is some circumstances or events have been predestined, and others have not, such as the outcome of our lives prior to our salvation. Afterwards, of course, our salvation is predestined, but rather than entering heaven "abundantly" if our ministry is ineffective, we will enter as one escaping from a fire, bringing little or nothing in the way of rewards with us.
     
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says that God does things among men that look like they happen by chance;
    But what does God say?:

    " The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the Lord." ( Proverbs 16:1 ).

    " The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." ( Proverbs 16:33 ).
    " And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." ( Acts of the Apostles 1:26 ).

    It was the Lord's decision to put Matthias in with the other 11...not theirs.


    " But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
    Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
    And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. "
    ( Genesis 20:4-6 )

    In the above, Abimelech made the choice not to touch Sarah...
    But what did the Lord tell him?
    That he had withheld Abimelech from sinning.


    God has a lot to say about what happens on the earth, just as He has the only say in who He saves and who He does not.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Pure fiction, the bible says things happen by chance. All this looks like nonsense is simply scripture nullification by addition and redefinition.

    Obviously Proverbs 16:1 is a vague and ambiguous verse, so the nullifiers say this means we make no actual choices. However, by comparing to Proverbs 19:21, the meaning becomes clear and exhaustive determinism is once again found to be without any actual support.

    Now take a gander at Proverbs 16:33, where "every decision" is assumed to be God's predestined outcome, when if God's decision is to allow things to happen by chance, then once again absolutely no support is found.

    It was the Lord's decision to allow them to choose Matthias

    And the fact that the Lord can determine events, circumstances and outcomes provides no support for the idea the Lord determines everything rather than sometimes allows events, circumstances and outcomes.
     
    #14 Van, May 27, 2024
    Last edited: May 27, 2024
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