Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

Allan?

I have been nothing BUT curtious to you and others. If you can't answer that is fine but please don't make stuff up brother.

As for Web, he hasn't said anything 'degenerating' that I have read in this thread.

I have asked, and had to continuously ask for you to answer simple questions that deal specifically with the OP. Beyond the the degenerating post of the good Dr. there is nothing degenerating except what appears to be the inability to answer my simple questions. Otherwise we can both simply agree what I have given is both biblically and resolutely true.

 

Have seen no scripture from you that states without life there is no understanding. What it does state is that without the revealing of truth to man by God Himself man will not understand.

Your statement in fact is biblically untrue in light of verses such as Rom 1:18-32 where they are not spiritually alive but scriptures states that "that which may be known of God is manifested to them". WHy? Because God personally revealed it or showed it to them so they 'would' know.

What is it that these dead men know (which God Himself revealed to them)? Well in verse 1:20 it states:
1. His eternal power
2. His Godhead - divine nature

vs 21:
3. They 'knew He was worthy to be glorified but didn't
4. They 'knew' He was worthy to be Thanked but didn't

vs 22:
5. They 'knew' His glory but changed it into something more like themselves.

vs 32:
6. They 'knew' His judgment against such
7. They 'knew' doing such was worthy of death.

James it is quite apparent they had a great deal of understanding and they are considered spiritually dead. Knowledge can be defined this way according to the dictionary. - The fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension

vs 25:
They changed the 'truth of God' (something they had and understood) into a lie.

vs 28:
They did not keep the 'knowledge of God'

God initiated the revelation of Himself (sin, righteousness, judgment to come) to them and it was ONLY after they rejected this truth which they understood that God 'gave them over'.

Then you also have many other passages like 2 Thes 2:10-12; Prov 1:22-33; Ezk 33:1-11; Rom 10; ect.. ect.. and so on and so on.

All of these are those who have rejected God but in the first God come to them and revealed truth to them that they might believe and be saved. The point is that they DO understand
BUT
They do not understand of and by themselves, it must be a work of God.

 

MB,
I do not disagree that salvation is all of God in the fact that God is the one who saves me. Eph 2:8-9 illistrates that even the faith I use to believe the truth of Christ unto salvation has come about because of the work of God in my life. His 'gift' toward us is that even while we are absolutely unworthy He will do this because it is His desire to do such - grace.

I differ with you about being convinced then you believe. You can only be convinced if you will first receive/accept/believe what you have been given. Thus they are actaully the same thing just different ways of saying it. We can say that being convinced is the placing all that we have believed into one act of faith in Christ.

To the last part my friend - there is always a choice. The fact that you believe life is to precious shows 'you' have chosen to believe this. You either make that truth your own by making apart of you (belief) or you reject it for something else. But I do understand what you are saying, I just don't 'necessarily' agree that once is convinced first then they believe.

 

So [you] beleive that all mankind is alive?? You do know that the word for 'man' here refers to mankind right?You do remember the the next couple of verse down which state "He is the ligtht that lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world" - Right? If I didn't know better I would say your sounding like a universalist
Another thing- Does Jesus not also state that He is the light of the world?? The 'world' is in reference to the whole of mankind.

I slso note that you didn't respond to the facts of Rom 1:18-32, that those unbelievers (dead) had recieved 'understanding' from God. You did state that only those who have life, understand - correct?

.......................................................................................................................

Now if you would please be so kind as to answer my posting earlier directly to you at your interaction (which I appreciate):

Refering to this:

 

I know this and was having a little fun with you - I know you do not believe in universalism :thumbs:

What?!
God lights all men - Statement of God illumating the minds of all mankind
BUT life must be in man before he can see - Statement of 2 possibilities
....1. Man is physically alive and therefore God will illumitate his (and all mankinds) understanding about God in accordance with vs 9 (lighting every man)
OR
....2. Man must be spiritually alive in order for God to be able to illuminate his understanding but not to all men - thus disputing vs 9 (lighting every man).

A spiritually dead man can see what God makes him able to see James. That is both the power and perogitive of God.

No, born is not something prior to salvation but is the act of salvation. That is why the topic we are discussing in this post is really a philosophical argument based upon a false premise of what you understand dead to be (IMO). That is why I want to talk about what regeneration entails and how those aspects transpirie prior to faith when scripture specifically refutes this out-right by stating they are imparted 'by faith'.

Your right, I needed to clarify.
Christ lighting of the world refers only to all the unregenerate lost people on the planet. Not once, ever in the the entirety of scripture is the word 'world' used to descibe God's people or the elect. So you are correct in that I needed to clarify that statement since it did not mean ALL of mankind.

No, this is knowing AND understanding all that God has revealed about Himself to them. They learned nothing about these things of or by themselves but the passage expressly states that God revealed these things to them - for the purpose of them believing. We know this because they chose not to and it was at that point that God gave them over to their choice AFTER He revealed Himself, Sin, and the Judgment to come. Is that not the work of the Holy Spirit in the world and that same work that He does upon the Elect or believers. Yep, I thought so to.

Very true but no man on earth will ever (not ever) come to know any of this in a fashion were-by it is a truth to be denied except that God reveal it to them. Scripture states God is the one who reveals to man - there IS a God, that Christ died AND 'rose again' (something only the Holy Spirit can bring someone to understand) the 3rd day. These are not 'just' facts but facts that ONLY God reveals to man. God illuminates the truth to the unregnerate that they might KNOW the truth. This knowing always entails understanding James.

Understanding is seeing but understanding is not the same as believing and you are confusing the two.
One can understand all the God reveals about Himself, sin, and the Judgment to come (and they will understand since God hasn't failed in teaching yet) but that does not necessitate they will believe. Rom 1, Prov 1, 2 Thes 2, Ezk 33 all illistrate this point. God brings forth light to those IN Darkness that they might have life, not vise-versa brother.

"Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."
"Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. "
"Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "
"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
"Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, "
"1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

Brother you are adding so much to the passage that is not even remotely there. You are dividing the meaning of understanding to be two distinctly different things then they are in fact one and the same. They KNEW - the only distinction is not understanding but whether or not they 'by faith' receiced that knowledge as truth.

Thus your premise of life before understanding is (as I see it biblically) a faulty one, if not a false one.

 

But according to scripture you are wrong.

Understanding comes before spiritual life.
We see this all through-out the scriptures just as I stated to RB - it is 'by faith' we are justified and 'by faith' we are sanctified, and 'by faith' the Holy Spirit indwells 'the believer', and it is 'by faith' we are made righteous before a Holy God, and thus because of all of the above we are placed into Christ and made one with Him - which is life.

ALL of the above is 'by faith' which means biblically, chronologically, and logically the excercising of faith precedes spiritual life.

 

Apparently you aren't reading the same scriptures I am. Those who sit in darkness (spiritually dead) do not 'see' the light?
Look again and re-evalute position which is in direct contradiction to scripture:

If all I needed was one verse to destroy your opinion, this does it with absolute certainty. However There are mutlitudes of other verses which show that the unregenerate do indeed see the light and can choose to no longer be in darkness.

Here is another one. The light is to those who ARE IN Darkness and in the 'shadow of death' (under condemnation but not yet condemned) to guide them to peace.

He came as a light in the world (unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness James. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

This is one of the most open and shut cases in scripture next to a few others.
God opening their eyes to turn them FROM darkness TO light. From Satan's power (which they are currently under and in - thus 'from' it) to God - SO THEY MAY RECIEVE.. forgiveness of sins (justification) and the inheritance (which includes the Holy Spirit) of those who are sanctifed (another aspect of the regeneration which can not be imparted apart from justification) BY FAITH. This does not state they are sanctified prior to the excercising of faith but AFTER.

This is one of the proverbial nails in your views coffin of being alive or regenerate in order TO believe. Scripture states absolutely - false.

The are IN darkness when God calls to them to come out INTO the light. If one is in darkness then one is dead or seperated relationally from God.

I think you are confused. One is not alive and still in darkness according to scripture. Yes, according to your theological presumption but not scripture.
If one is alive then one is in Christ for in Him is life. Thus if one is 'in Christ' one is IN the light also and not in darkness. You have a lot to explain in order to maintain any type of biblical stability here (IMO), since you are saying you can be alive but in darkness. Please - explain.

So let us set aside you philosophical notion of the wooden literal dead from which your false premise begins and look once again at when LIFE begins. Both you and I agree that the regeneration IS the beginning or spiritual birth of new life.
So I ask ONCE AGAIN, in accordance with the scriptures already provided:
Are we not justified 'by faith'?
Are we not sanctified 'by faith'?
Are we not indwelt by the Holy Spirit 'by faith'?
Are we not made righteous before a holy God 'by faith'?
In light of all the above being that which places us lawfully into Christ, is it not 'by faith'? we are regenerate/made alive/or born-again.

Please show scriptures which state any of the above transpirie prior to the excercising of faith if you believe otherwise.

 

You haven't even dealt with them so.. no, have supported nothing whatsoever.

Does scripture state or does it not that it is 'by faith' we are justified, sanctified, indwelt, made righeous, and thus alive (regenerate) in Christ??

It is a simple question to answer brother.

 

Again you are absolutly incorrect. If God reveals truth/light to man they WILL see it and the scriptures I have already provided scream you are in error. It is not I who will not believe brother but you who are ignoring scripture for a theological view.

There is no double meaning to understanding in scripture except for someone to make it up. You are making an assumption they do not know their need for them to know their sin and the judgment to come because of it proves in fact they do know their need but they don't want to believe it so they trade the truth for a lie. Just because you know something does not mean you will believe it, and for God to reveal sin, His righteousness and the judgment to come as He does with all men (including believers).. we must say they know because it was God who showed them.

Born means saved. they were not saved before they beleived. They were not even justified, sanctified, indwelt, or righteous (regenerate/born) before they believed. You are still stuck with the glaring scriptural problem before you. To as many as 'received' Him (notice the word 'received') and that it correlates to the next verse which speaks to an event in the past as well. That event. "to as many as recieved (by faith) Him, to them He gave the power (what exactly is this I wonder) to become the children of God, to as many as believed on His name. That power is spoken of in the next verse that power He bestowed upon them is the New birth. Context in key here.

Actually I just biblically proved you are absolutely wrong. You have an incorrect understanding of what the bible states about the spiritually dead and it is that which forces you to continue bringing up something proven wrong even in the face of truth. Listen to the scriptures James they deny what you are stating with absolute certainty.

No non-cal disagrees with that. No man decides when he will be saved since God is the one who chooses when He will deal with each man individually. but as says the scripture 'to those who received Him He gave the power to be His children'. the new birth follows faith for it is 'by faith' or 'because of faith' we are justified and sanctified. Acts 26:18 is quite clear on this.

No James, you gave me your opinion of what two verses 'mean' and I have shown how you are in error (IMO) though you still have not dealt with passage I have given proving scripturally the exact opposite.

Again, scripture does not support your philosophical notion.
Scripture states that we christians "are Dead TO sin" and by your own defintion we can not respond to sin, look toward sin, or know about it.

It is an absolute statement just as much as "we are dead in our tresspasses and sins. Romans 6 talks alot about being dead but still able to do things that according to you the dead can not do.

You either have to change the meaning again to something else or admit your defintion is not contrived from scripture but from a philosophical position.

What God reveals about Himself that man WILL understand everything that God gave Him to know.

Here is where you leave fact for presumption. God reveals Himself to them in the same manner that He does with believers. The did not just understand some facts (which can only be understood by God revealing them to them) about Him but understood who He was and thus YES their need for Him. But that is where they must decide to believe they truly need Him (as God has pointed out to them) or if they will turn the truth into something else for their pleasure. THAT is what Romans 1 is about. God extensively reached out to them in revealing Himself - righteousness, their sin, and judgment to come - but they rejected it and He gave them over to their choice. You are adding to much fluff into the passage which is not biblically there at all brother. Don't stuff it, just read it.

I never said it did. I said God reachs out to all men in the same manner via the Holy Spirit convicting them sin, His righteousness, and the judgement to come. Men must choose to believe the truths God has revealed that they might be saved or reject them.


Please refer to my other two post so we can shorten this again