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OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 9, 2018.

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  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Type [OT deliverance from Egypt and the wilderness]:

    Jude 1:5 KJB - I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    Type [Sodom and Gomorrah]:

    Genesis 14:8 KJB - And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;

    Genesis 14:10 KJB - And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.

    Genesis 14:11 KJB - And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.

    Genesis 14:12 KJB - And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.

    Genesis 14:14 KJB - And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

    Genesis 14:15 KJB - And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.

    Genesis 14:16 KJB - And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
    Though God had used this event, to save and deliver the people of Sodom and Gomorrah from being sold into slavery, by HIs faithful servant Abraham, and brought them to Shaveh, meeting Melchizedek; how did the peoples of Sodom and Gomorah treat this grace and deliverance? Did they repent and submit to this almighty delivering God? Was it a guarantee to them, that they could forever have God's favour outside of repentance? They mistook God's grace, and sinned all the more, and so though they had been delivered, they were to now be destroyed forever:

    Genesis 18:20 KJB - And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

    Genesis 19:24 KJB - Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    Genesis 19:25 KJB - And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

    Luke 17:29 KJB - But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    2 Peter 2:6 KJB - And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;​
     
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    James 1:14 KJB - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.​

    Notice the context, that the victory only goes to those that "endureth temptation" [James 1:12 KJB] and overcome in Christ Jesus by the Power/Grace of the Holy Spirit. Notice again James give the sure warning, "Do not err, my beloved brethren." James 1:16 KJB and "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." James 1:22 KJB, for we can be self-deceived.

    We can be "drawn away" from God, of our own desires, and "enticed" to leave God altogether for the deceptions of satan. That is why the warning is given all over the Scripture, Satan can "devour" us!

    OSAS is the deception of the devil that he may pick off the arrogant, the presumptuous ones of God's grace, which take it to mean that no matter what one does that they cannot lose out. What a foolish and utterly hypocritical notion! [I had a Christian friend [non-SDA] who was deceived into believing OSAS, and because this friend was not told to watch, or to be concerned about sin, they ended up in jail, with a record, and on a government list, and nearly cost them their marriage to their spouse ...]

    Just as the Israelites were the "ensamples" [types] [1 Corinthians 10:11 KJB] for us, as they were just upon the borders of entering in, they were ensnared of the enemy, and were destroyed! Do not we see the real danger of the same unto our own soul?! They could turn away from God, even as we, by our own free choice that God gave unto us. We would then be using the power of the choice that God gave us to refuse God.

    Numbers 32:15 KJB - For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people.

    Deuteronomy 30:17 KJB - But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

    Deuteronomy 30:18 KJB - I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.​
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    James 5:7 KJB - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

    James 5:8 KJB - Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    James 5:9 KJB - Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
     
  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Colossians 1:20 KJB - And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Colossians 1:21 KJB - And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    Colossians 1:22 KJB - In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Colossians 1:23 KJB - If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
     
  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Genesis 2:15 KJB - And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.​

    The Garden, outwardly, was to demonstrate what was in the inward part of the heart of man, which is the Heart Garden, the fertile soil of the heart [Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:15,etc.; Song of Songs 4:12,16, 5:1; Isaiah 58:11; Jeremiah 31:12, etc. KJB] God was to always walk in.

    They were to “dress” in God's righteousness, and to “keep” it by the strength He bestowed in them. Yet, because man allowed satan to sow the seed [tare] of doubt into the Heart Garden, weeds and thorns grew, into sin, and thus God left the Heart Garden, and then He had to remove man from the physical garden, and institute the plan of redemption.

    Salvation, is the free Gift from God [un-earnable], even as was the original Creation and Garden. Yet, mankind had a duty, a responsibility towards God, in the freedom of will granted. They were to “keep” and 'guard' that which was “committed” unto them, and they in turn were to commit themselves unto the keeping by God. Salvation is based in relationship.

    John 8:31 KJB - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    Eve [and then Adam] had accepted another word, another seed, a G.M.O. [Gainsayers Modified Orders] and it changed their D.N.A. [Dutiful Natural Affection], changed their flesh, changed their relationship to God and to man [one another] ...

    Thus, since it is relationship, we may as readily divorce ourselves from Him if we choose to, and so in the marriage to Christ Jesus, it works the same, for He will force none to remain who do not desire it, though He attempts to woo us and draw us by longsuffering love, yet there is a crucial point [differing for each], at which He sees we will not return, [having beaten back all the waves of love, and spurning the Holy Ghost, searing the consceince] and so lets us go:

    1 Corinthians 7:15 KJB - "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. ..."

    Hosea 4:17 KJB - Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.​
     
    #125 One Baptism, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  6. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Jesus said:

    Matthew 12:32 KJB - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Luke 12:10 KJB - And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
    For the OSAS [etc] advocate, what then is the 'un-pardonable sin' for the OSAS person [for they are as much a "whosoever", as anyone else]?
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    David confessed, Against thee, thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight.

    Again, learn the difference between sin and trespass, and you'll find you aren't making cogent arguments. You think you know the law because of meats? Learn what it teaches us of Christ's sacrifice, and what it means to be born of God.

    I would ask if you think you go a minute in perfect righteousness, but you would tell me you go days at a time without sinning. You'd have to think that of yourself not to be fearful that at any moment you could slip into an eternity of hell. It just means you don't know the law, you know little of Christ, and even less of yourself.
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    It means God is our Father, not just our maker, and that we are partakers of the divine nature, just as in the flesh we are partakers of the natures of our earthly fathers.

    Never was Adam begotten of God. Never was he a partaker of the divine nature. We have been given eternal life. Eternal, and God does not give, then take away.

    You preach a doctrine of devils.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    hint:

    "the wages of SIN is death" Rom 6;23
    "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
    "the soul that SINS it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is SIN" James 4:17

    So then are you claiming that you have a "problem" with these texts and somehow want to make this "my fault"??

    ????
    Are you posting to this thread by mistake??
    Where do I talk about eating mice or any sort of meat on this thread??


    Your ability to tell yourself stories in that creative writing style of yours -- is most impressive.

    How about taking a break from that and returning to the actual Bible discussion at hand?

    For example here is the post you claimed you were ostensibly responding to

    Consider the option of taking an actual statement from the post and responding to it.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Nothing in this creates a "blanket pardon" soteriology.

    If all are pardoned...why have we been given the ministry of reconciliation?

    Because no man is saved until he is reconciled to God.


    Of what? My doctrine is sound.

    Can you say the same? Your response is very vague but seems to deny that a "blanket pardon" is unbiblical.

    Bring forth support from Scripture.

    Or repent.


    God bless.
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, no.

    Where in the Ten Commandments do we see that men are to believe on Jesus Christ?

    We do not keep the commandments of God so we can be in relationship with Him, we keep His commandments because we are in relationship with Him:


    Ezekiel 36:24-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    This holds the Promise of New Birth, which is a result of the eternal indwelling of God.

    The one thing that your doctrine, and that of other Judaizers, does not have is...

    ...an understanding that it was not until Pentecost that the Disciples (to whom the Lord spoke of keeping His commandments) would keep His commandments.

    That is why Christ came...because no man kept His commandments:


    Hebrews 8:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.



    Are you seriously trying to teach people to keep the commandments for salvation?

    Show me one person that gained eternal life through keeping the commandments.

    Show me why you are right and Paul is wrong...


    Galatians 2:20-21
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



    Christ's death is meaningless to you, whosoever you are that seek eternal life through keeping the Law:


    Galatians 3:21-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



    You need to spend a little time in the New Testament, OB.


    Continued...
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think OB is arguing that all have been pardoned
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The context you miss is the Word of God, not the Ten Commandments.

    Christ expounded what men are to understand by the Law that was given to Israel...not the world in general.

    And it has not been passed down to those who are the sons of God:


    Hebrews 5:10-6:2
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

    11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Chapter 6

    1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.



    The Law could not make perfect (Hebrews 10:1), and perfection is what the Hebrews were called to go on unto. That includes Judaizers like yourself, who are pseudo-lawkeepers, because you cannot keep the Covenant of Law, only parts of it. See the Links, OB, and see why strong meat belongs to those who have been perfected (made complete) in Christ.

    Then look at the Service you cannot keep...


    Hebrews 7:11-19
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

    16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

    17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

    19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



    The "Law" you seek to bring men under bondage to was weak and unprofitable for those who were far more devout than you could ever hope to be. It could not make perfect/complete those to whom the Levitical Priesthood ministered to, not could it make the Priests perfect/complete...


    Hebrews 9:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

    8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

    9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



    So tell me, if men could not obtain eternal life through the Law, and could not be made perfect/complete through the Law, and the sacrifices could not make perfect/complete...


    Hebrews 10:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



    ...why are you disobedient to the Commandment of God and teach men to be under Law?


    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We shall see.


    God bless.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And the context is...Old Testament.

    And the primary thing those who seek to bring men under Law are ignorant of is...

    ...the Ten Commandments, nor the Law, nor the Covenant of Law...

    ...bestowed Eternal Life.

    That is only accomplished through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was a Mystery, not revealed to the sons of men or the SAints in Ages and generations past.

    The transgressions which were under the Law were retroactively redeemed through the Cross of Christ:


    Hebrews 9:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    The Law did not give eternal life in the Old Testament, and it will not give eternal life in this Age:


    John 6:49-53
    King James Version (KJV)

    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



    Keep your commandments.

    I will trust in Christ and His offering of Himself, which has made me perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins...forever.



    God bless.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Starts off with mostly error there - but the one point on which both sides agree is this --

    ..the Ten Commandments, nor the Law, nor the Covenant of Law...

    ...bestowed Eternal Life.

    That is only accomplished through the Gospel of Jesus Christ
    ,

    You are smearing even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" arguing that it must no know about the Gospel since it knows that in the Bible God's TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God - written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33.


    =========================================================


    (C.H. Spurgeon’s edited version of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)



    Baptist Confession of Faith 1689


    19. The Law of God


    1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

    2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

    3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

    4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

    5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

    6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

    7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

    .

    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part24
     
    #136 BobRyan, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    His will, as already shown before:


    Acts 17:30
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



    If you wish to remain in the times of ignorance, go right ahead. But this is the first commandment you need to obey.


    Faithful?

    There is nothing at all concerning faith in your doctrine.

    You are a Judaizer. And you cannot even do that properly. You cannot keep the Law, because you cannot offer up sacrifice for sin. That is part of keeping the Law, you know.

    You're ignorance of Salvation in Christ has you suffering from delusions of grandeur:


    John 16:2
    King James Version (KJV)

    2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.


    Galatians
    5 King James Version (KJV)


    1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.




    Acts 15:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?



    2 Corinthians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

    2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

    3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

    5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?



    Your doctrine kills, and is bereft of Eternal Life and Salvation through Christ.

    Like I said, you need to spend some time in the New Testament, then perhaps you will see your religion isn't helping you.


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, no.

    Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and the Creator of Israel, who are a people, a Nation created to be witnesses of the One True and Living God.


    Here is the quoted text:

    Hosea 11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


    Here is the second:


    Matthew 2:13-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

    14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

    15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.



    And here is Israel:


    Matthew 2:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.



    Christ is not Israel, my friend, He is the God of Israel.


    Great, show me one of these quotes that supports your doctrine. That is why you do not post them, because you know you will be shown you are in grievous error.

    Christ descends through Israel, and that is a primary thrust of many texts.



    Hebrews 2:9-13
    King James Version (KJV)


    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.



    That Christ is of Israel does not make Him Israel.

    He is the Creator God, and the Captain of Israel's salvation as well as from among all families of the earth.



    Well, those of us that actually study the Bible do:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    His sons are those who receive Him and are born again.

    "His Own" is...Israel.

    Not Himself, but Israel, the People, the Nation.


    Continued...
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not interested in either your doctrines of men or the doctrines of baptists.

    Sola Scriptura, Bob.


    God bless.
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We do...


    Exodus 31:13-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

    14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

    17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

    18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.



    ...It's the same Children of Israel as seen here...


    Hebrews 3:15-19
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

    16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

    17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

    18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.




    Can I suggest to you that they kept the Sabbath? lol

    Didn't help their unbelief, nor did it prevent their physical deaths, nor did they enter into God's rest.

    Now, the question for you is, do you understand the difference between them entering rest and our entering into the Rest which is Christ?


    I would agree: there is physical Israel, which speaks of the nation, and there is spiritual Israel, which are they which obey God's will.

    We can't say they obeyed God's Law, because we are told they died because of unbelief. The Gospel they heard was not mixed with faith:


    Hebrews 4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.



    So, in regards to your statement...

    ...I have to conclude that you haven't the foggiest idea what Scripture teaches, and have nothing to offer this Forum but Religion. And sadly, a Religion that God replaced with faith in Christ through the Revelation of both the New Covenant and the Mystery of the GOspel of Christ.

    If the Gospel is still a Mystery to you, friend, then you stand in the same place as all of those of Israel who also did not have this Mystery revealed to them. You need to be reconciled to God, and that will never happen so long as you seek righteousness through the Law:


    Romans 10
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



    You are seeking a righteousness you will never obtain to through the Law.


    Continued...
     
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