OSAS question? About repentance and stuff!! :0))

Amen, DQuixote -- you are so right on! :thumbs:

 

They are Brother & Sister in Christ. Who are you? by Ed


Ed a question for you.
1.What is the difference between a JW and a SDA?
2. Would you call a JW a brother or sister in the Lord?

 

Shiloh,

NO here is a question FOR YOU. "Who is my neighbor"? If people KNEW the answer, they might be inclined to treat others with respect no matter if they have differing doctrines or not.

If people started thinking along the lines of... is this a person that God created? maybe then they would stop acting as if they were on some sort of higher plane than others are, and would be showing them a little bit of class in how they treat them?

You may as well be asking whats the difference between an SDA and a Samaritan.


Do we not all have one Father?


Decency 101 Class:


Luke: 10
25: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29: But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30: And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31: And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32: And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33: But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34: And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35: And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36: Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37: And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

The JW teach a false Christ and a false Salvation.
I do not call them brothers & sisters.

The SDA teach a true Christ and a true Salvation.
I call them Brothers & Sisters.

In the last week three times I said what I think about SDAs.
Nobody debated with me.
So I guess we are all agreed: no more dissing SDAs
(feel free to diss their doctrines that you think are in error.
BTW, when somebody saids 'that isn't what I believe' there
is a good chance one might have missed soemthing somewhere)

Back in like 1991 I was talking in a chat room to
a JW. We agreed: let us make a statement that both
JWs and Baptists agree upon.
We did. Here is the statement:

If you are saved, it was Jesus saved you.


It is interesting what you can learn from people of
other religions, if you bother to listen to what they say
instead of beating them over the head with what
somebody else said they are supposed to believe.
There are many false teachers gone out, some of them
appear to be Baptists. many Baptists sources put
out false information about other religions (and needless to
say, many other religions put out false information
about Babtists. Here is one such information:
"Baptists are called 'Hard Shell Baptists' cause they
are can't talk to strangers, won't dance, and have
Jello* for brains."

* my appologies for using a brand name, but it really
wasn't me said it, twas someone else. I just quoted it.

If there is a seriousness test the question and answer:

Occupation:
yes

shows a big lack of seriousness. Where I retired after
32 years of work, I sit for like 3 years by a man who,
when he got the ciruclatates put his initials in one column
and in the column labeled 'date' he put "wife won't let me".
needless to say, he didn't retire there.

 

:thumbs: many can learn from this statement

 

Originally Posted by Ed Edwards

When I had a Baha'i friend, I learned how
to lean on the basiscs of Christianity better.
When I had a Brethren friend, I learned
how to be a better friend to fellow saints.
When I had a Carismatic friend, I learned how
to know the full gospel Gifts of the Spirit.
When I had a Catholic friend, I learned how
to worship God better.
When I had a Church of Christ friend, I
learned how to sit in plain folding chairs
(not fancy pews).
When I had a Disciple of Christ (AKA: Christian)
friend, I learned more about the Lord's Supper.
When I had a FreeWill Baptist friend, I learned
why to work harder for the Lord.
When I had a Jewish friend, I learned how to
respect the Holy Name of G-d.
When I had a Lutheran friend, I didn't learn
much - but it wasn't his fault.
When I had a Mennonite friends, I learned I
don't like to picket Abortion Clinics.
When I had a Methodist friend, I learned
how to work harder for the Lord.
When I had a Mormon friend, I learned how
to depend on Christ more in the Latter Days.
When I had an (Eastern) Orthodox friend, I learned
how to paint faces on bas-reliefs.
When I had a Pentecostal Friend I got hooked on
prophecies about 'Ed'.
When I had a Presbyterian Friend I heard about
the 'scripture' "Many are Chilled but few are Frozen".
When I had a Reorgnaized Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints, Temple Lot, I memorized that
long denomination name
When I had a Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) friend,
I learned how to study prophecy deeper.
When I went to a Unitarian Universalist Association
meeting, I listened to an overweight Native American
(formerly American Indian) blame white guys like me (well,
actually i'm speckled) for -- never mind, this is supposed
to be an inspirational post.
When I had a Worldwide Church of God friend in
the 1970s, I learned how to study the Bible deeper.

But I prefer a Baptist church any ol' day.

Act 17:10-11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the brethren immediatly sent away Paul
and Silas by night vnto Berea: who comming thither,
went into the Synagogue of the Iewes.
11 These were more noble then those
in Thessalonica, in that they receiued the word.
and searched the Scriptures dayly,
with all readinesse of minde,
wither those things were so.

 

LOL, Bob! You know absolutely NOTHING about Calvinism to even assume such a statmentconcerning what I said. Your pretence of even accusing me of 4 point Calvinism would cause true 4 pointers to go into a salving frenzied fit. LOL.

Just so you know on the baptist debate section I am one of the most ardent apologists AGAINST Calvinism. I personally (understanding Calvinism) know that you either you hold to all 5 points of Calvinism or the very system of theology loses all credibility to sustain itself. Each point is built on each other so to remove one point is to cause the whole house of cards to collapes. Just ask ANY Calvinist on here if I even hold to 3 points of Calvinism and they will laugh at you.

You seriously need to read more on Calvinism before accrediting what I said to any point in Calvinism. But I must say I laughed so hard I actually cried...

But if you want to say I hold to one aspect (1 point) of Calvinism then yes it would the Perserverance of the saints as described constinatly in scripture.
Definition - Steady persistence in adhering to a course of action, a belief, or a purpose; steadfastness.
2 Cor 5:15 - Paraphrased - One saved always changed.
But please understand it is not Calvinism that the first had this understanding from the scripters. I came from the Apostles, through the early church fathers and through the ages. Especially since the doctrine wherewith one can loose their salvation was propagated by the Catholic Church and has remained a sound doctrine that keeps many Catholics from leaving. Actually you find this doctrine almost every cult to keep their practioners from leaving their falsehoods.

You will find the difference due to an understanding regarding the covenants and who maintains the covenant (ex. suzerity (sp?) King's promise to servants and is upheld regardless of the other side; and Parity - one made by equals with regard to ability to sustain or keep the pledge but kept or upheld by both sides - If one dishonors it the covenant is broken; example of parity is a marriage) \

Since we are not Gods equals the only covenant He can make with regard to salvation must be suzerity and therefore it is maintained by God and kept by Him because He is the giver of this gift. It can only be null or voided if GOD defaults on His promise to save.

 

In your first paragraph -
Are you saying you CAN save youself outside of Gods intervention?? Or am I reading you wrong. Because scripture abounds with the teaching you can not come to God of yourself and is WHY God came to man.

Second paragraph-
You are under the assumption that apostasy is done by a believer. Scripture references then as being among believes but then if you will just continue reading you will find it stating things - if they were of us they would have stayed among us thereby we KNOW they were NEVER one of us. Ya know things like that.

This is why Paul says to EXAMINE yourself to whether you are IN the Faith. Many people THINK (mental accent) that they are believers but they are not. This is why Jesus tells the one on Judgment day who claims "Lord, Lord have we not...for you name sake..." and Jesus will tell them to depart those who work iniquity or one who was NEVER mine. NOT one who walked away!

 

In the Greek it is WILL NOT perish... Use a concordance. I could post it in Greek to lend to the credibility, but why? If you wont even believe what is right in front of you in english

 

Your problem is Bob, is that you don't even understand the doctrine you are trying to refute. You sound...ummm...quite silly really.

You might want to get more studying in before answering conerning the doctrinal view of another.

Once a person is truly saved or a true beleiver they are changed by God in such a way that they CAN NOT fall into paganism, or even a lifestyle of sin. A born-agian believer though they may sin they will not - NAY- can not continue in such a way that it becomes a lifestyle. God is the corrector of His Children and HE it is that will not allow them to go far but HE will bring them back to repentence. Yes we are the ones repenting but it is because God is the one who showed us we need to and that we have broken fellowship with Him.

 

Since I agree 100% with what he states here, I used his conclusion to better illistrate my point.
And another John MacArthur:

 

Man I'm gone for a few days and I get hammered!

I didn't think that believing my salvation was in the hands of God and that God would change my life so radically I would ever seek out my old again was such an abhorent thing but I guess so. Wow, has the Gods people really fallen so far...

 

Wow, has the Gods people really fallen so far... No. That's the point I am trying to make.

 

The Ten Virgins all had their robes on, white robes of purity, claiming to be Christians. Five were foolish. The Lamps they carried represent the Word of God (Thy Word is a Lamp unto my Feet). But Five had no oil (Holy Spirit).

Jesus told them Depart from Me, yes that work iniquity (lawlessness) I never knew you.

Its that simple. Many Christians today make a mere profession of Christianity. With no inward change.

 

I can agree with the point of the above statement

your summation of verses one through 4 seems a bit out of order, but we'll work with it. Keep in mind the order of reference is very important, if you're are not careful you may give the wrong interpretation of Jesus' words.
It's interesting how you separated the above comments from the following

I'd be careful yet again with the "good" commentaries you decide to reference.
Whenever some one starts off a statement with "it seems to suggest.....", well they are aknowledging what the passage says, but must attempt to clearify it to their own meaning.

Within that first statement the writer is concerned about the salvation of "UNFAITHFUL CHRISTIONS" as he would call them. Is there a such thing?

This persons premis to the BOL is completely flawed!

1. If this BOL that Jesus is speaking of is not His own, but all inclusive of the World, then why address it to The Church - His body? John 3:19 Jesus say the verdict is men love darkness and will not come into the light. So why would Jesus address non believers as though they had some hope and now it gone?) Just because some one is born physically doesn't mean they are born spiritaully. By referencing Jesus' book of life that way this is what your commentary is doing.
2. Your commentary has a contradiction of terms that seems to be more opinionated than contextually accurate. "Unfaithful" vs "True Believers". Does the "unfaithful" not believe or not care? Should he rather made the comparison of the Faithful vs Unfaithful? There is a point to this.
3. Read the scripture and you will see that it does not line up with your commentary:

I know your deeds (JESUS); you (THE CHURCH) have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die (WHATS TO STRENGTHEN IF IT IS DEAD?) for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God (JESUS JUDGES CURRENT CHRISTIAN - FAITHFUL OR NOT ON CURRENT PROGRESS). 3Remember (INDICATES A PRE-EXISTING RELATIONSHIP), therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up (CURRENT CHRISTIANS WHOME, BECAUSE OF THEIR CURRENT SPIRITUAL CONDITION CALLS THEM: SLEEPERS NEEDING TO WAKE UP), I will come like a thief, and you (CHRISTIANS WHO ARE SLEEPING IN SIN) will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes (THEY WOULD BE DIFFERENT THAN THOSE WHO HAVE "SOILED THEIR CLOTHES" - MEANING THEY WERE CLEAN BY JESUS AT SOME POINT. CAN'T GET DIRTY UNLESS YOUVE BEEN CLEAN - IT ONLY MAKES SENSE. KEEP IN MIND THAT JESUS IS TALKING ABOUT BEING ONCE CLEAN HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE WORLD WHO NEVER CAME TO HIM TO BE CLEANED). They (FAITHFUL CLEAN KEEPING CHRISTIANS) will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy (WHOA, WE CAN BE WORTHY). 5He who overcomes (OVERCOME WHAT? THE WORLD) will, like them (CLEAN CHRISTIANS), be dressed in white. I will never blot out his (OVERCOMERS - CLEAN CHRISTIANS) name from the book of life (DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOUR STANDARD RECORD BOOK to me), but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

ASK YOURSELF THESE COMMON SENSE QUESTIONS:

IF the BOL is just a record of people born into the world, why would Jesus be Refering to them as someone who was once clean?

Or once alive?

Or as those having something to "strengthen" if nothing was never there?

No! It's the spiritual book concerning the lives of HIS CHURCH not the WORLD. BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

The NT describes it in the "Forgiveness revoked" chapter of Matt 18 where the king insists that the servant WAS fully forgiven and was in a position to share the gratitude for what he had really experienced with his fellow servants. In fact that is what draws the complaint - he WAS fully forgiven and YET amazingly refused to share out of joy for what he had fully received --

The NT describes the return to rebellion as a "dog returnes to his own vomit".

It is hard to simply explain these texts away in favor of the man-made tradition known as OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
This is a good foundational argument for 4 Point Calvinism's denial of the Bible teaching on Perseverance. The idea is nothing you did results in salvation and no amount of "failing to persevere" ten years from today "including unbelief and paganism" could ever make any other change in your salvation -- no change in any case either for Good or evil -- is based on "what you do" what you choose or whether you decide to continue in faith or completely dump it.
Bob

Is this where you complain that "you" are getting pounded?

Is this where you now ACCEPT the Bible doctrine on Perseverance instead of denying it as do 4 Point Calvinists???

Sounds now like you are in the 5 point group.

Which one do you want to really join - Perseverance -- in our out?

in Christ,

Bob

 

#1. SDAs are Trinitarian - JWs are not.
#2. SDAs believe that the second coming is future and literal and that the saints are all taken to heaven at the rapture which takes place at the 2nd coming.... JWs do not.
#3. SDAs believe that there are saved Christians in all denominations...JWs do not

While BOTH groups claim to argue from scripture alone and claim salvation by grace through faith - the SDA view is backed by sound exegesis.

SDAs follow the Bible practice of sound exegesis.. rather than simply ranting about what others say with little or no Bible evidence at all for the wild views a few others might suggest.

In Christ,

Bob

 

My debate history on the Calvinism-vs-Arminian board is "considerable" as well. You bring out a good point about Arminians that accept OSAS looking like Calvinists that reject perseverance when they speak to their OSAS beliefs.

Often Calvinists themselves expose this flaw in the Arminian-OSAS camp and I have to admit - they make a good case for showing how the Arminians are totally wrecking the Arminian doctrinal position by ALSO clinging to the man-made traditions on OSAS.

Hence in the discussion like this - it is easy to confuse an Arminian defense of OSAS with 4 point calvinism and in some cases with 5 point Calvinism -- because they start making claims about what the saved person "CAN NO LONGER CHOOSE".

Pretty obvious problem when you really think about it.

Well that is good - but if it is "Perseverance as in NO CHOICE" then the flaw Calvinists typically point out in that Arminian-OSAS model is shown to be a valid argument against it.

I hold to Perseverance AND to the Arminian view which means I am forced to reject OSAS as not only man-made-tradition not found in scripture -- but also as totally nonsensical when viewed within the Arminian framework.

Just stating the obvious here.,

But when you argue "Nothing we did participates in the salvation event whereby an individual is saved - therefore nothing we might do separates us" you ARE Making the 4 point Calvinist argument -- like it or not! IF I were a 4 point Calvinist arguing against such a compromised Arminian-OSAS view I would dearly delight in holding your feet to that fire of "accountability" pointing out this glaring flaw in your otherwise Arminian arguments.

in Christ,

Bob
.