1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

OSAS vs. Heb 6

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by PeterMeansRock, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying (just to clarify) that a Christian could "fall away" and never repent and still be saved?

    If that's the case, why would anyone choose to take up their cross and follow Christ? They can live life (the way they think is) the easy way and not worry about not being saved--for they have confessed that Christ is Lord... no need to ask for forgiveness anymore, they're still saved, no matter what they choose to do, or how they choose to act because they believe Jesus is God and died on the cross.

    I honestly do have friends who believe they are OSAS, go to church on Sundays and Wednesday nights, and yet still get drunk and have sex with their partners on a regular basis (forget for a moment that they believe pre-marital sex is alright in God's eyes.. they believe even they're wrong, they're still saved anyway). What do you say to Christians like that? For, after all, that IS the logical conclusion of OSAS. Sure, we may not like it... but you can't always pawn things off as "they're not really truly saved". There's gotta be a deeper answer than that.
     
  2. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Once saved always saved" is a poor way to conceive of eternal security. "Perseverence of the saints" is preferred. One who truly puts his/her trust in Jesus as a personal savior will "endure to the end".

    "OSAS" leads one to believe that if one makes a profession at one time then he/she is automatically, permanently saved no matter what he/she does in the future. Anyone who could live in sin without conviction was never indwelt to begin with.
     
  3. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    So then the question inevitably becomes.. how does one know one is "truly saved" until one has finished running the race?

    Any backslidden Christian for any period of time will automatically be assumed "not truly putting their trust in Christ". Is one then waivering in trust? Where's the line?
     
  4. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Every Christian will have peaks and valleys. Some will "backslide" more than others. As a teenager I was heavily involved in alcohol. I had no guilt about it at all, despite being "raised up" in the catholic church. After becoming a Christian early in med school I had some periods of weakness where I "backslid" and got drunk several times. I felt burned up inside each time.

    Regarding one's ability to "know for sure" - the Bible is pretty clear on how to become a Christian and how a Christian lives. Although I'd concede that there certainly will be some surprises on judgment day.
     
  5. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    So then... is one "eternally secure" in Heaven, or on earth?

    I agree that the Bible is clear, but the fact remains that there are many, many interpretations of the Bible. How does one know without fail that they will not be turned away from the Lord. I have given the example of my friends who engage in fornication--openly. What of them? They believe themselves to be eternally secure, and they they interpret "fornication" to mean only a non-committed relationship--the Holy Spirit has confirmed this for them. While I entirely disagree and can only pray for them... they will tell you that they are living like Christians and that they "know" they are going to Heaven.

    I have another friend who has completely rejected religion/church attendance/etc. who says "I said that prayer, I'm going to Heaven whether I still believe the same things or not".


    Again, where is the line of assurance and unassurance?
    Do we know or do we trust?
     
  6. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are always consequences for sin. Those who hold to eternal security do not think that it matters not how we live. The difference is that the consequences, though they can be quite severe, are not eternal damnation.

    Jesus' disciples were often asking Him if they could sit at His right hand or be great in the kingdom. Jesus did not reprimand them for such desires. He corrected their understanding about how you get there. You get there by serving.

    1 Corinthians 3:14, 15 says that if any man's work lasts it will be rewarded, but if any man's work is burned up he will suffer lost; but he will be saved yet as going through a fire.

    The lost is a serious matter. God is just. He will reward us based on our faithfulness. Our sins have already been paid for. Our justification is not partly on God and partly on us. It is all on God. So all of oursins have been covered by Christ's blood.

    We see both kinds of motivation here: because of Christ's love, and because we areaware of the possible rewards or discipline for our works here.

    BD
     
  7. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    IMO, as I said before common sense shows that Hebrews was written to believers. Except for the warnings, we find the readers addressed as "brothers" (10:19; 13:22) and "holy brothers" (3:1). Sometimes he includes himself with them. Things are said to them that could apply only to Christians and these all appear shortly before or after the warning sections. So IMO each of the warning sections applies to believers. The 5 participal phrases that I listed earlier are all in the Greek aorist tense, which means they aren't referring to things done repetitiously.

    I imagine that most will agree that the theme of Hebrews has in some way to do with the “supremacy of Christ.” Throughout the letter, however, the writer dramatically interrupts his arguments with warnings - 5 of them. And in the entire letter, these warning passages are never introduced with any transition that might indicate the author is shifting his attention to a different group among the readers. Nuff said about believers being addressed.

    The 1st warning is concerning the danger of "drifting away from the truth" spoken by the Son, of which they were taught. They are reminded of those in Israel that were "redeemed by the blood of the passover lamb" (who left Egypt) and saw the power of God, who when they drifted away from the law given by angels... died. 3000 died because of the golden calf rebellion.

    And we have so much more knowledge than was given to them, and so a correspondingly greater responsibility to live in light of that truth. We cannot just ignore its message.

    The 2nd warning is the danger of "not entering into His rest because of unbelief." It's not enough to be justified by faith. They must continue to live by faith. If they live in unbelief they will experience serious discipline from the Lord.

    A whole generation perished in the wilderness because of like failure to trust God. They were saved out of Egypt, true, and from slavery which illustrates our own slavery to sin before believing in Christ - they experienced God's salvation. But... they all died in the wilderness. But this is NOT spiritual death.

    There is more to the Christian life than just being saved. There is a rest... a crossing of the Jordan River as well as a crossing of the Red Sea. Can believers today die in the wilderness never having entered in by faith into the blessings and rest God has for them? Yes, and many do just that! What happened to that generation was to be a warning to these Jewish believers as it should also be a warning to us to not fall through the same manner of unbelief caused by a bitterness against God because of His dealings with us.

    Hebrews 5:11-14 exhorts us to allow God's Word to work in our lives so that we too are not hardened, grieving the Spirit of God. I guess that's enough of an explanation of my overview of Hebrews to set the stage for this 3rd warning section. In 5:11 we read that the problem in these hearers is that they have “become” dull of hearing. They didn’t used to be that way - they are now.

    This, the 3rd warning (5:11-6:20), exhorts the believers to move forward in their spiritual growth from milk to solid food. They are in danger of perhaps "falling away." The 3rd warning Involves the danger of not going on to maturity. What is the danger? The danger is that if we do not, we could "fall back" into apostasy.

    Barnabas (allow me a little liberty - I like him and I'm going to refer to him as the author of Hebrews) had carefully argued for the preeminence of Christ’s person and also His work. Now he warns them not to revert back to their Judaism roots because of persecution but instead to cling fast to their Christ/Messiah so that they can enter into both the present and future blessings that accompany salvation.

    So much for context.

    Heb 6:1,2 Therefore (For this reason - d??´ DIO) leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity; not laying again...

    Barnabas is concerned that if the readers do not make progress in the Christian life, they could regress to a state from which there is such a hardness of heart that there will be no chance for their repentance. If this happens they will suffer the loss of rewards at the BEMA seat of Christ. This is not a threat to be damned for eternity. These people knew that Christ was the fulfillment of the OT sacrifices and that the temple sacrifices are all fulfilled in His once-for-all sacrifice... yet they cannot seem to understand why it would be wrong for then to go back to the temple and to the sacrifices. In 6:1 we read that these immature believers needed to leave the ABCs of doctrine and go on into maturity. We cannot ignore this context. Heb. 6:2 continues to list the specific examples of those ABCs of teaching.

    In Heb. 6:3 we read that this "going on to maturity" we will do "if only God permits.” (EANPER EPITREPN hO THEOS) This is very important. We cannot force maturity. The Father wants the child to mature, and so this Greek 3rd class condition shows that the fault is with us, not God, if we do not go on to maturity. (The 3rd class is introduced with EAN and has subjunctive mood in what's called the protasis clause - the "if" clause. It generally refers to a "probable future.") So it's safe to say that Barnabas anticipated that they would indeed go on to maturity - it's a positive statement. Now we get to the heart of the quandary.

    Heb 6:4ff For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, AND have tasted... AND... (IOW, Christians) ...AND falling away, to renew them again unto repentance

    The Greek does not have EI or EAV indicating "if" or a conditional clause. It has simply a conjunction continuing the string (KAI) of participles. It is not subjunctive or future, so instead of translating it as "IF they SHALL/MIGHT fall away (as some translations have it) I kept it simply as "AND falling away... to renew again to repentance, crucifying to themselves (or to their own hurt) the Son of God again and exposing [Him] to public ridicule..." I don't know that it made much difference, but that's how I see it. Interestingly, there is a similar string of participles in the well-known Hebrews 10 problem passage.

    Heb. 6:7, 8 For the earth which drinks in (another participle, articular) the rain that comes upon it often, and producing (yeah, another participle) vegetation useful to those fo which it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God: But producing (another participle) thorns and thistles is disqualified (ADOKIMOS - failure to meet a test), and close to a curse, whose end is to be burned (infinitive).

    So we see a contrast of land which produces vegetation/crops useful to the farmer and receiving a blessing from God is contrasted with that land which instead produces throrns & thistles and instead is CLOSE to a curse and whose end will be to be burned. But think about it... what is burned when the yset fire to the field? The vegetation, thorns, etc.... NOT the ground.

    Blessing and cursing are in view, not heaven and hell, not eternal life or eternal judgment. Compare this passage with the parallel one in 1 Corin. 3 as I suggested before... the same contrast is made. A foundation is referred to in both passages. Both refer to almost not being saved. In 1 Cor. 3 there is gold, silver, precious jewels vs. wood, hay, stubble while here there is useful crops vs. thorns and thistles. In both ADOKIMOS is the possibility - to be disapproved or to fail the test.

    Again in 1 Corin. 3 says "If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire. " Both refer to the "judgment" of fire...

    Let's consider his exhortation in vss. 9-12. This is often skipped, but it is key to understanding what is going on in the previous text. Notice that Barnabas is confident that this will not be the case with these readers - of being ADOKIMOS, and he exhorts them to be diligent in their faith and to follow the example of the OT saints. He will expand on this for encouragement later in chapter 11. And to further drive his point home he reminds them of the faith of Abraham, who received the promises of God.

    Remember, he urges them to press on to maturity (and is confident that they will) through holding fast to the certain hope of salvation through Jesus Christ as they look toward their reward from God who IS faithful to His promise.

    Which brings us to the crux of the matter... what does it mean to refer to the Impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen away? Severe judgment was on that field. Barnabas explains (GAR - for - a key grammatical signpost) his warning about the impossibility of repentance through the imagery of ground which receives God's blessing of rain and then receives either blessing from God for bringing forth useful vegetation or a burning that is close to being cursed for yielding thorns and thistles.

    Now I must admit that I am as puzzled as all of us about this particular expression "impossible... to renew to repentance." But one thing that was made clear here as in 1 Corin. 3... the ground was NOT cursed... it says that it is NEAR to being cursed. The grammar is very clear - it's talking about ground that DOES produce thorns and thistles - which results in a state of "near to being cursed."

    Even if I'm interpreting this "repentance" or some other part of this passage incorrectly, one thing is clear - such ground is not representative of those believers who could possibly lose their salvation.

    Remember, Barnabas was convinced of better things for those believers he's writing to, and warns of a possible very severe judgment/punishment/discipline for their falling away - back into Jjudaism practices.

    In the warning Barnabas says that God will not forget their diligent labor and exhorts them to show the same diligence so as to realize their full assurance of hope... not being sluggish, but imitators of those who "through faith and patience (endurence) inherit the promises. (6:12) KLARONOMOUNTON - present active genitive active plural participle of KLARONOMEO.

    Did you get that last? This is inheritance truth, not eternal life truth. We all will be heirs of God, but if we want to be joint-heirs with Christ, we need to "suffer with Him..." This passage is literally saying the same thing as 1 Corin. 3... but with a little different imagery. Since Paul and Barnabas ministered together for some time, that's not too surprising. We inherit the promises through faith and endurance.

    But consider again verses 6:4-6... it begins with ADUNATON GAR. GAR is postpositive, so you can just consider it to be the 1st word here. "For (it is) impossible..." (ESTIN - "it is" assumed). It was placed at the front to make it emphatic. Ever wonder why he spoke of some of the things he did as elementary teachings in vs. 1? The assertion that "it is impossible to restore them to repentance" is parallel to the notion of laying again the foundation concerning repentance in vs. 1.

    But you'll notice that there the primary word concerning Christ was the foundation, which had to be left standing and which could not be recast! This thought is reiterated in vs. 6: it is impossible to seek to lay another foundation than the one that has been laid and is sustaining the people of God... Now consider 1 Corin. 3:11... because no any other foundation can anyone lay than that which has been laid -- which is, Christ Jesus. The parallel of these two passages is amazing.

    In the perspective of Hebrews, there is no other repentance than that provided by God through Jesus Christ. There is no salvation apart from the redemption for our sins accomplished by His Son, who is better than Moses, Aaron, angels, etc.. ADUNATON as used in vs. 4 expresses an impossibility because the apostate repudiates the only basis upon which repentance can be extended... to repudiate Christ's sacrifice - His provision - is not really "possible" for the Christian.

    So I may not be exactly sure how all of this imagery applies, but one thing is quite clear... the crops are burned, not the ground... this is not warning of taking away or losing a salvation - the foundation. IMO this is not just referring to casual or common, everyday type sin which we all experience, but apostasy - but I do not agree that this results in eternal damnation.

    Let me repeat something I said earlier: this 3rd warning exhorts the believers to move forward in their spiritual growth from milk to solid food. They are in danger of perhaps "falling away." The 3rd warning Involves the danger of not going on to maturity. What is the danger? The danger is that if we do not, we could "fall back," not into apostasy, but to a futile resting on their Hebrew roots. Some of you will agree with me there, but we may not agree on the consequences. You see, I veiw such falling away as something that CAN happen to genuine born-again ("from above") Christians. But I do not see a consequence of eternal damnation. NEAR to cursing... or "he will be saved, yet as through fire." (1 Corin. 3).

    Well, that's my take on Hebrews 6.

    Thx,

    FA
     
  8. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry to seem so dense, but what is the "danger" of falling away if there's no fear of eternal damnation?

    There is no "danger" if there remains Salvation.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesusrocks: //So then, are there no consequences for sin? What's the point
    of struggling against sin and temptation if one will be saved no matter what?//

    Your error is in assuming 'there are no consequences for sin'.
    There are always consequences for sin, every time.
    In the O.T. every time you commited a sin, an innocent lamb
    had to die.

    Jesusrocks: //I DO have close friends who grieve me deeply by their relationships.
    Both of them are stauch believers in OSAS, and engage
    in pre-marital sex (which they believe to be "right").. but
    claim even if it were not so, they would still be saved
    because nothing can snatch them away from Christ.//

    Apparently they do not understand the following concepts:

    1. once
    2. saved
    3. always
    4. once saved
    5. always saved

    Doubting Thomas: //Hmmm...you might be on to something...especially if you're
    talking about final salvation.//

    Hummmm. Talking through your hat again?
    There is no such thing AS FINAL SALVATION.

    Here is a description of salvation:

    John 3:16 (the version in Ed's head):
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son
    so that whosoever believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH but
    HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

    Sorry, but 'not perish' and 'everlasting life' do NOT relate
    at all to the term 'final'.

    Thus Salvation has a starting time, endless interveening times,
    and no end time. The whole idea of OSAS is that you are just
    as saved at the FIRST DAY of your salvation as anyother day
    of your salvation (there is no END DAY to salvation).

    Doubting Thomas: //Perhaps Paul was refusing to be as presumptuous
    as some modern day Christians who deny the possiblity that
    they might ever fall away.//

    Sorry, I forgot what verse you speak of. If you are speaking of the
    topic verse, Hebrews 6:3-5; I showed on page one or two that
    which has NOT BEEN REFUTED -- that the Author of Hebrews was teaching
    OSAS using a 'reductio ad absuerdum' type argument.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, the truths of God
    are always the TRUTHS OF GOD and they don't
    change.

    1. Sin always has consequences.
    2. Savaltion by Christ lasts forever
    3. Saved people do NOT WANT to wollow in sin
    4. God forgives sins
    5. Saved people have no choice but to
    attempt to avoid sin
    6. Free Will dies when Jesus Saves

    You figure out

    JesusRocks: //... what is the "danger" of falling away if there's no fear of eternal damnation?//

    There is no danger of falling away, if
    you are saved. There is danger of falling
    into a sin pattern (in fact it is likely)
    if one is NOT saved.

    A saved person will try to please Christ
    each and every day in each and every way;
    a saved person will NOT fall into a sin pattern
    of consistant sin.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque
    ---------------------------------------------------

    In this judgement:
    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    no Christians or national Jews are invited
    all are LOST people; lost people are judged
    for their evil deeds

    In this judgement:
    5. Great White Throne judgement
    saved people are NOT invited, all of them are lost.
    lost people are judged for their evil deeds

    In this judgement:
    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    lost folk are NOT invited.
    Saved people are rewarded for their good works
     
  12. jesusrocks

    jesusrocks New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mr Edwards...

    I was asking whether there were consequences for sin (not stating there are none, for I believe that there are).. however, it would seem that if one holds OSAS that these consequences are meaningless... what is the real danger of falling away (that Paul speaks of in the passage of Hebrews that this thread is about)? There is no danger if one is secure in Salvation.

    ...Salvation, which, I believe is found in Heaven--the goal which we, who are "running the race" (cf. 1 Cor 9:24) on earth are still working towards (Phil 2:12).
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does a marriage start at the wedding or
    at the death of one of the spouses?

    Does an adoption bring childhood/parenthood
    at the signing (start) or when the
    inheretance is received (end)?

    I still believe that Jesus saved me as
    much as He can the day I first believed,
    not the end day (cause there is no end to
    salvation), not the translation day
    from earth to heaven. The milage of others
    may vary.

    If i start acting unmarried, does that make
    me unmarried? No, but it ruins the
    maritial relationship
    If i start acting unadopted, does that
    make me unadopted? No, but it ruins the
    child/parent relationship.

    We are not saved by our works, but by the
    works of Jesus.

    Initial salvation, AKA: justification,
    is not salvation by our works, but by the
    works of Jesus.

    Daily salvation, AKA: scantification,
    is not salvation by our works, but by the
    works of Jesus.

    Transition salvation, AKA: glorification,
    is not salvation by our works, but by the
    works of Jesus.

    Terminal salvation -- doesn't exist,
    salvation cannot be terminal.
     
  14. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think what I am saying has sunk in. I would say to your friends who are fornicating that if they do not repent of their sin, that they are going to be judged for it at the judgment seat of Christ. Fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God, but will be cast into outer darkness for 1000 years. (1cor 6:9,10, mat 25:30)

    2 Corinthians 5:10-11
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
     
  15. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christian friend I couldn’t agree with you more, and we need to understand our salvation today. I’ve never said anything different than what Christ from heaven revealed to Paul. Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ as our salvation for today in this dispensation only we are saved by the grace of God that came to us through our Lord Jesus Christ, as He did all of the work. Every human being from Adam until Damascus Road, Acts 9 and Cornelius Acts 10, was to make blood sacrifices. The Christians were never required to do so for Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself for us. But please notice in scripture that the apostolic church (Pentecostal) of the Jew in Jerusalem, and Judah continued this practice until the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.

    Why was this? Because there were two gospels being preached, as shown when Paul and Barnabas had to go to Jerusalem to have the “troublers” from Judah to quit contaminating the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven to the Gentile (Galatians 2, and Acts 15). There were “Jews” in that day, and there were “Gentiles”, and the Gentile can never be a Jew, and we are not to believe the gospel that was only to and for the Jew, unless we wish to be a proselyte, and never able to enter into the Temple of God. But Peter says it is possible for the Jew to be saved just as we Gentiles, Acts 15:11, ”But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” Christian faith, ituttut
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know what falling away means... but the point still remains that those who fall away MUST come back. We must always ask forgiveness for our sins. YES, they were all forgiven at Calvary, but that's not a blanket "don't worrying about asking for forgiveness anymore". Think of your parents-- you know they'll always forgive you, but that doesn't mean you never say you're sorry anymore and you never ask pardon for your wrongdoings.

    Again, I have to ask, where is choice in the matter? Do we suddenly lose the ability to sin when we're saved? (and we surely know that this is false) And what is sin but separation from the Lord-- and Paul tells us (Galatians 5:4) if we are void of Christ we are also separated from grace. (and yes, in context, Paul is speaking of circumcision... but his main point-- that those who are void of Christ are also fallen from grace). But do "saved" Christians suddenly become unable to choose anything other than God... they no longer choose to love God and struggle in their lives?
    </font>[/QUOTE]The Christian can "fall away from", but it is impossible for us to "fall out of", for we are sealed in. We couldn't get out even if we wanted to. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    As has been explained by several people here, the doctrine of OSAS most certainly holds severe penalities for leading an unfaithful life. Although he's still saved, a disoedient Christian runs the danger of not only loss, but even chastisement during the 1000 year reign.

    Let me ask you two questions:

    You seem to think that there are only two sides to the equation: Those who are in the lake of fire ("hell" is nothing but the grave) and those who are eternally in bliss, ruling and reigning. Who are they going to be ruling and reigning over?

    Second question: (Actually, two questions comprising one conclusion.) Do you believe that Scriptures are inspired and infallible? If not, go no further; if so, then answer the following question: Acts 16:31, in response to the question of "What must I do to be saved?" answers, "Believe (aorist; punctiliar action) on the Lord Jesus and you will (indicative; no doubt about it) be saved". The possibility of losing your salvation contradicts this verse. How do you justify that?
     
  18. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0

    Hello Faith alone. Please see mine above yours. I agree the Jews in Hebrews 6 are genuine believers of the Pentecostal church, but not Christian.

    Paul, who I believe is the writer of Hebrews, is pleading with His Jewish brethren to “go forth unto Christ”. Hebrews 13:13, “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.” Those of “Judaism” (Acts 2:46,47, and 3:1) were very cautious and would not attempt to begin anything “outside” the camp. Jesus was crucified “without the camp”. The writer, whoever one believes wrote Hebrews, so wants the Jew, yes even the 12, to go outside the camp where they will meet the one the house of Israel rejected. We can see Peter wanting to do so in Galatians 2, but it was not to be so. It evidently was not God’s will for Peter to do so, for the Temple still stood. But we do not have to worry about the 12 Apostles for they will have their own kingdom that Jesus Christ gave to them, to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "Wages" of "Every sin" committed will be "PAID", by a "DEATH", no exception, "EVERY JOT/TITLE" the law requires, "WILL BE PAID".

    GOD NEVER FORGIVES SIN

    Sin can't be "TAKE AWAY" by "forgivness", "Repentance" or "Sacrifices", these doesn't fulfil the requirements of the law,

    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

    OT saints made "Sacrifices" and their sins were "FORGIVEN", but not "Taken away", until the law's requirements was "fulfilled"

    Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Without a "DEATH", the law is not satisfied, and every "Jot/title" the law requires, will be paid.

    If you'll read the scriptures with this in mind, you'll have a better understanding of the problem Paul was addressing in Hebrews, that is of the "Flesh" having to "satisfy the law" (die) much "Quicker" than it normally would, our life can be "prolonged/shorten" by our obedience/dis-obedience.

    HOW MANY TIMES WILL JESUS HAVE TO DIE, TO "SAVE US"?
     
  20. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    10, er 11 key points on the text:
    Well, as I argued earlier, the burning of a field that yields thorns and thistles does not destroy the field. The purpose is to hopefully prepare it to yield a useful crop in the future. The parallels with 1 Corin. 3:10-15 are so close as to be undeniable and 1 Corin. 3 clearly refers to lost rewards and a painful experience...

    1 Corininthians 3:15 - "but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire."

    Now, compare that with:

    Hebrews 6:8 - "it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned."

    Burning is often used in the NT to refer to God's discipline and purging:

    Have a great Christmas everyone!

    FA
     
Loading...