Paganism??

Grant,

I was Chatecized around the time that I was 8 years old.

I took my first communion.

It was a little round wafer, that DID NOT get broken.

What I experienced is the norm.

Your personal involvement in the Liturgy is not what every person experiences.

People are given a round, flat, wafer that represents what?

It is NOT broken.

What of those?

God Bless

 

I don't believe Grant was saying that every piece of Eucharistic bread is broken. I believe he was saying that sometimes he receives a piece the one large host that is used by the pastor in the elevation of the host (it's easier for everyone to see) and is thereafter broken into smaller pieces unlike the other hosts consecrated on the altar. This occurs at most every mass. Sometimes you receive part of this larger host, broken. Sometimes you receive a separate, smaller, unbroken host.

 

I believe I asked one of you guys before where the Bible says that the bread is to be put in a monstrance and bowed to. What's the answer?

 

I believe I asked one of you guys before where the Bible says that the bread is to be put in a monstrance and bowed to. What's the answer?

These instructions aren't in the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it say that we are to construct large churches and have altar calls?

Many of our practices are natural extensions of true doctrines that are formulations of revelation, revelation found in Scripture. Christ says, "This is my Body", and we believe him. Since Christ's Body is hypostatically united to his Divinity, when we worship His Body, we are worshipping His Divinity, which - in the order of justice - requires the assent of our worship.

[ February 23, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Carson,

Thank you for confirming what I was trying to say!

Ok, now that we have a Catholic who is willing to admit that the host is NOT broken, let's move on to the point.

Here is EXACTLY what Jesus did and said when He instututed the Holy Communion Meal.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

NOW that word in all 3 verses is 'klao' in the Greek, which means 'break'.

SO, if the 'body' that Jesus presented to them was HIS, it was BROKEN.

The 'host' that you present and are presented is NOT broken.

It is not the 'body of Christ'.

Apostolic tradition DOES NOT supercede the Bible.

Jesus BROKE the bread, having blessed it, and told the disciples to TAKE IT and EAT IT.

WHY? Because HE was broken.

I'm not trying to be picky here, but the Bible says the bread is to be broken.

ALL OF IT. Not just the piece that is held up. (which I don't recall Jesus doing that)

God Bless

 

Actually, Jesus broke the bread because that's what the Jews did during the main course of the Passover Haggadah/Seder meal between the second and third cups of wine.

They also ate the unleavened bread with bitter herbs and an unblemished lamb (like a sandwich).

To "break" the bread is to signify that the bread Jesus turned into His Body is the unleavened bread of the Passover Seder meal proper. In turn, the third cup is what He turned into His Precious Blood. Then, they sang the great Hallel (Ps 115-118) and went out for the Mount of Olives before partaking of the final cup of consummation, which concluded the Passover. Jesus actually said that he wouldn't drink of the fruit of the vine (the fourth cup of consummation).

Guess what happens just before Jesus gives over his Spirit in John 19? "I thirst" --> wine on a hyssop branch is given to Jesus --> "It is finished." What's finished? Passover.

In the Last Supper, who is the Lamb that atones for sin? Jesus. In the Last Supper, what Lamb's flesh is partaken of? Jesus.

[ February 23, 2003, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

"Where in the Bible does it say that we are to construct large churches and have altar calls?"


That's silly Carson.

The Church isn't constructed.

The Church is added to.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


The altar call question:

It actually isn't an 'altar', but the idea of having people come forward to pray together and such, is done in NT times, on the Sabbath.

Only they didn't meet at an altar, they met at the River.

Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont (a custom) to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

God Bless

 

That's why they're wrong.

It doesn't, so we don't.

Since there is an assembly, there must be a meeting place: that's natural. Since we take bread in the communion we need a plate: that's natural. Since we take bread in the communion we need a big golden Pagan Sun-ray monstrance to put it in: that's not natural.

By the way, if Jesus had wanted us to worship the bread, He would have said so, but rather He said "do this in remembrance of Me." Can you imagine Jesus at a Jewish passover taking a peice of bread, putting it in a monstrance and telling the disciples to worship it? His own disciples would have stoned him to death for it!

 

Carson,

I appreciate that you have delved so deeply into the context of those passages, but you are forgetting something.

That isn't the only time Jesus broke bread with them.

He did it AFTER He said 'it is finished'.

On the road to Emaus.

Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luk 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Luk 24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

THEY KNEW HIM in the BREAKING of bread. THAT is how they knew HIM. Because HE BROKE THE BREAD.

Paul admonishes us:

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

It said He broke it, because it is His body that is broken for you.

If you don't break it, it is just bread.

There is a process. Bless, break, eat.

Also:

1Co 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

We are to partake of bread that is broken. Sounds to me like the body that partakes should each get a piece broken off from ONE bread.

This doesn't fit with the wafer host that is used.

There are just TOO many verses that say they BROKE the bread.

Why deny what the Bible teaches?

BREAK the bread!!

God Bless

 

Mom,

I still don't understand; are you saying that the bread must be broken before consecration takes place (something you don't believe in anyway)? The host used in Adoration of the Most Blessed Sacrament is eventually consumed, and I would imagine that it is broken before consummation.

I see this as a non-argument. The breaking itself does not cause the consecration, but the words of Jesus.

God bless,

Grant

 

Read about the pagan eucharist sun worship:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

I will add more in a few minutes about what "eat my body and drink my blood" really means in the Bible.

 

Chrissy,

I have already addressed these "sun" issues. You either ignore what I write, or just don't care. You are right, and I am wrong. Is this not your point of view? Why bother discussing with you, if you are not open to listening to what I tell you I believe, which is exactly what my Church teaches? You'd rather believe the Internet (a medium for which lies are more prevalent than truth) than the horse's mouth. That's your perogative. Just don't expect me to take you seriously if you won't take me seriously.

God bless,

Grant

 

By the way, Chrissy, I thought numerology was an unChristian practice.

God bless,

Grant

 

THE EUCHARIST- literal body and blood of Christ?


Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55.

The words of Christ apply to our spiritual nature as well. He declares, "Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life."


It is by receiving the life for us poured out on Calvary's cross, that we can live a life of holiness. And this life we receive by imbibing His word, and by doing those things which He has commanded for us to do. Thus we become "as one" with Him.

"He that eateth My flesh," He says, "and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me." John 6:54, 56, 57. This is no mere outward sacramental rite, but an inward change of heart.


As we contemplate our Lord's great sacrifice, the soul assimilates the spiritual life of Christ. We can this receive spiritual strength from every Communion that we take.

As we partake of the bread and wine, symbolizing Christ's broken body and spilled blood, we will more fully comprehend the meaning of the sacrifice made by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. We contemplate what Jesus did for us on the cross and this thought awakens love and gratitude in our hearts for Him. Then pride and self-worship cannot live in the same soul that keeps fresh the memory of the cross. This is what it means to "eat the body and to drink the blood of Christ". We actually must "digest" Him into our hearts which will be worked out in our lives.

------------

The rabbis said angrily, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" They pretended not to understand His words in the same literal sense as did Nicodemus when he asked, "How can a man be born when he is old?" John 3:4.

In just in the same what that Jesus did NOT MEAN that Nicodemus was to go back up into his mother's womb and be "born again" in a literal sense, so too did He not mean that we have to literally "eat the body and drink the blood" of Christ.

Jesus said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him." To "dwell in Christ and Christ in you", means the same as the story He told about that He is the Vine and we, the branches. We must constantly abide in Christ- He in us and we in Him.

It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by "drinking" it in, that we are to have our characters changed into His likeness. What food is to the body (in nourishing us), Christ has to be to the soul (spiritually). Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our very being. Jesus will be of no value to us unless we know Him as a personal Saviour. A mere theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His character, must become a part of us.

Jesus said, "As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me." Just as Jesus lived by faith in His Father, we are to live by faith in Christ. Jesus was so fully surrendered to the will of God, that the Father's will alone could be seen in His life.

Jesus SAID what he meant, right after He said it...

John 6:63: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

He said that it isn't the flesh that really means anything... but it is THE WORDS that He speaks to you... His Word, if not brought into the heart and soul, will mean NOTHING to you in the way of salvation, unless brought into our very lives. We must DIGEST His WORD... as if "eating" it.

Listen to Jeremiah:


Jer:15:16: Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Now that doesnt mean Jeremiah sat there at the dinner table, with knife and fork, literally eating the Scriptures. Of course not.

We do not live by physical eating, by physical bread alone... but rather Jesus - the "Bread of Life" ... Jesus and His WORD ... everything God SAYS to us in His word... is to be something we "eat" and LIVE BY:

Deut:8:3: And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live .

Once again, you can read where the Catholic idea of the Eucharist came from HERE:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

[ February 23, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]

 

Chrissy,

Is that last post your own work? Based on its structure, I would say not. Please confirm or deny.

God bless,

Grant

 

From the same website, a pretty accurate refutation of all the things you stated on that website:

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/monstr.htm

By the way, I just came back from Mass, receiving my Lord and Savior, God and all, Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine, in the most blessed sacrament, the Eucharist.

It's a wonderful day.

God bless,

Grant

 

Grace Saves,

If it is the policy of this board that once YOU say something, nobody else is allowed to say anything after that, then it is a bad policy. Everyone is free to either read what I post or ignore it. The same with what you post.

And YES, numerology is an unchristian practice... it is pagan. And YES, it is not a Christian practice to have a Eucharist, let alone have 666 on it. You are correct.

[ February 23, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]

 

Could you please quote me on saying ANYTHING of this sort to you? I don't remember ever saying anything like that. What I DID say is that I would really like it if you would write your own thoughts instead of always relying on others. I'm simply saying I'm not going to read every bogus website on the Internet to understand your point of view. You should be able to state it, at least mostly, in your own words. I never said you CAN'T copy/paste and give website links. I said don't expect me to take your arguments seriously when you don't bother to write in your own words.

So you use an unChristian practice to show how Catholics are unChristian. .......Come on, I can't be the only one to see the ridiculous nature of that.

*sigh* You have the Catholic explanation for what the three letters stand for. But, instead, you take an off the wall numerology method to equate them to 666. If this is the way you rationalize your beliefs, I thank God I have not fallen for it.

God bless,

Grant

 

By the way, "Eucharist" means Thanksgiving. I didn't realize it was unChristian to offer thanks to our God. Or to celebrate the Lord's Supper which he commanded us to do. Nor is it unChristian to eat His body and blood, which He commanded that we do.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing anything but solid Christian practices there.

God bless,

Grant

 

Chrissy --

I'm curious. Do you actually do ANY thinking about the answers which are given to you? It surely does not seem so, given the frequency and sheer overwhelming volume of what you are cuttin' and pastin'. You seem more bent on overwhelming us which these half-baked stories, obscene "jokes" and other nonsense. You seem to hope that maybe one of us Catholics is going to suddenly shriek, throw our hands in the air, and cry out

GOD FORGIVE ME FOR BEING A BAALIST SUN WORSHIPPING FOOL!!

Sorry to disappoint you, but it ain't gonna happen. ESPECIALLY with us converts. And MOST ESPECIALLY with those of us, like me, who used to believe EXACTLY THE SAME VENOMOUS NONSENSE you are rattlin' off like a machine gun. We had to STUDY STUDY STUDY our way into the Church. We used every argument against the Church we could find, had them all answered, and put down our swords and entered the great Barque of St. Peter, the Church which is the holy Bride of Christ.

Why don't you simmer down all this cuttin' and pastin' and let's take ONE TOPIC and work it to death. I'd like to see you go away and actually THINK about what is said to you for a day or two before you chuck stuff at us every 15 minutes!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed