Passover

michelle said "Passover is an English word invented by Tyndale."

Yes, after he had already published his NT, when he realized that "Easter" wouldn't work in the OT - after it was too late for him to go back and fix "Easter" in the NT.

 

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Yes, after he had already published his NT, when he realized that "Easter" wouldn't work in the OT - after it was too late for him to go back and fix "Easter" in the NT.
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Really? And how is it you know what Tyndale realized?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

This all brings it again to the question what is your final authority. To Michelle her authority is the translators of the KJV. They did not always translate what the text states. Again, she refuses to deal with the fact that the Greek word used in Acts 12:4 was used numerous other times in the KJV and was always translated Passover. The only response is that Tyndale invented the word passover.

I just want to ask in which verses did the KJV translators get it right? When they translated the Greek word easter, or when they translated the same Greek word Passover?

Bro Tony

 

Michelle asked "Really? And how is it you know what Tyndale realized?"

Because he used "Easter" in the NT where it refers to the OT's "Passover". Matt 26:2, Matt 26:18, Mark 14:1, Mark 14:12, Mark 14:14, Mark 14:16, Luke 2:41, Luke 22:1, Luke 22:8, Luke 22:11, Luke 22:13, Luke 22:15, John 2:13, John 2:23, John 6:4, John 11:55, etc., etc., etc.

 

I need to correct my earlier post where I said "Pesach" was Greek for "Passover". I Greek word for Passover is actually "Pascha". "Pesach" is the Hebrew word for Passover, and "Pascha" is the Greek equlvalent.

 

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This all brings it again to the question what is your final authority. To Michelle her authority is the translators of the KJV. They did not always translate what the text states. Again, she refuses to deal with the fact that the Greek word used in Acts 12:4 was used numerous other times in the KJV and was always translated Passover. The only response is that Tyndale invented the word passover.
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There you go again Tony, misrepresenting what I have said and believe. Does this not make you a liar?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Michelle asked "Really? And how is it you know what Tyndale realized?"

Because he used "Easter" in the NT where it refers to the OT's "Passover". Matt 26:2, Matt 26:18, Mark 14:1, Mark 14:12, Mark 14:14, Mark 14:16, Luke 2:41, Luke 22:1, Luke 22:8, Luke 22:11, Luke 22:13, Luke 22:15, John 2:13, John 2:23, John 6:4, John 11:55, etc., etc., etc.
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Again you avoided answering my question. Again, how is it you know what Tyndale realized?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

There is no misrepresentation at all. You say that easter is correct in Act12:4, the Greek word clearly is translated as Passover, even the translators translated it that way everywhere else in the NT. So since the translators of the KJV translated this word easter here and that is not what the word is, and you say it is correct, when it is not correct, then you final authority must be the translators who mis-translated the word Passover as Easter. If your final authority was God, then you would accept what He inspired Luke to write and that would be Passover.

So I am not a liar, I am merely decifering your incredibly twisted thinking.

Bro Tony

 

Michelle asked "Again you avoided answering my question. Again, how is it you know what Tyndale realized?"

Because the alternative (it being purely coincidental and accidental that Tyndale used "Easter" in the NT before he started on the Pentatuch and then inventing the word "Passover" and using it in the Pentatuch and never using "Easter" in the Pentatuch) has about the same odds of happening as me winning the Powerball lottery even though I don't buy tickets.

Perhaps you have another explanation?

 

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If your final authority was God, then you would accept what He inspired Luke to write and that would be Passover.
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I accept what God has provided the English speaking churches for generations, even up until this very day. I do not hide behind some language, nor refer to some other language that I am unfamiliar with in order to understand the truth in my own language. God approved this word to be translated as Easter, and as it has stood for generations in our language up until this very day. God is my final authority, not you, nor anyone else, to tell me differently.


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So I am not a liar, I am merely decifering your incredibly twisted thinking.
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Yes you are, and on top of it deny the power and providence of God concerning his word of truth in our language. You have relied upon your own self, and what you think the Greek should have been rendered, and as a result of your misunderstanding, falsely claiming the scriptures are in error.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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John refers to Passover in John 18:28 & in 19:14. We know from the rest of the scriptures that the Paschal lamb meal had already been eaten the previous evening. If John wasn't referring to the continuation of the days of unleavened bread as Passover, then to WHAT PASSOVER was he referring in the passages above? (Remember, you NEVER SAID there were TWO Passovers!)
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First I would like to thank you robycop, for taking the time to answer my questions. At some point I will respond with my own answers/understandings to those questions.


Please read the entire chapter of John 13 through John 18. Then read Luke 22.


Jesus had a special passover meal with his 12 disciples before his crucifiction (before the real Passover), as he was/is the Passover and desired to eat the Passover with them - and this is what is being referred to. Since Jesus could not participate with them the real passover, he did the night previous. Whether there was a lamb or not, the scriptures do not say. Jesus was/is the Passover lamb, and the passover feast that others were preparing for was coming as indicated in John 19:14. Jesus was sacrificed the exact same time the Jews would have sacrificed their passover lambs, as God had ordained it. Jesus would not have been sacrificed any other time than this, as He is the TRUE PASSOVER LAMB OF GOD.


It is like, if your child has a birthday, and you have to go away and cannot be there for some reason, you celebrate it on another day, but recognize it as the celebration of that birthday and being like that same day. This is what Jesus did, celebrated His Passover, with his disciples prior to it, so that He could, and they could celebrate it together in the normal manner.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

[snip] I take your attacks as a compliment. [snip] It gives me great assurance I'm on the right track.

Bro Tony


[personal attacks deleted]

[ September 16, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]

 

And what you are calling "mystical knowledge" is in reality and truth FAITH IN GOD and HIS TRUTH founded upon and coming from the TRUTH IN THE SCRIPTURES.
So you have false accused me, yet again. This seems to be a trend with you.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ September 16, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]

 

Your continually making this statement does not make it true. It is just the clanging of a symbol who has never made a sound that could be clearly understood. You are hopeless, you are unable to admit that you might be in error, you are a slanderer of the Word of God. This will be my last post to you as there is no need for me to try to stand against your insane KJVOism, as everybody has your number. I am done wasting my time with you and will be a better steward of the time the Lord has given me. I am knocking the dust off and moving on. I hope, but doubt, someday you will open your eyes and come to your senses. Good-bye Michelle, it will be interesting to meet you someday in heaven.

Bro Tony

 

Michelle: "God approved this word to be translated as Easter, and as it has stood for generations in our language up until this very day."

Although I might not accept Michelle's theological reasoning on this word, I do understand (!) why "Easter" could have been and was a legitimate translation either in Tyndale's day or at any time up through 1611/1759, since it was a customary name given to Resurrection Sunday at that time and (colloquially) remains so up to the present day. So in this light, "Easter" is not a "wrong" reading, but neither was Tyndale wrong to render the term PASCA as "Easter" throughout the NT in his day.

HOWEVER -- and this is a *big* however -- I would challenge *any* KJVO defender to show *where* and *when* during the *entire* period from Tyndale through the mid-19th century that ANYONE -- scholar, preacher, commentator, Bible teacher, uneducated layperson, etc.-- EVER claimed that "Easter" in Ac 12:4 meant some supposed "pagan festival" worshipping the Babylonian godess Ishtar, and that Herod was in fact a pagan worshipper of that goddess.

It is at this *point* that the KJVO position shows itself to be non-credible and to have created a "modern myth" designed *solely* to "defend" what _could_ have been accepted as a reasonably legitimate translation of PASCA **if** the need to support one particular reading at *any* cost had not been so great.

Go ahead, KJVO supporters....show me ONE source from Tyndale through the mid-19th century that claimed that "Easter" in Ac 12:4 indeed *was* a pagan festival, and that Herod observed it.

Feel free to appeal to the definition of "Easter" from Wesbster's 1828 dictionary as well; it won't help your case:

"EASTER, n. A festival of the christian church observed in commemoration of our Savior's resurrection. It answers to the pascha or passover of the Hebrews, and most nations still give it this name, pascha, pask, paque."

Let's see the proof of the point you are claiming, people.....

 

So far the silence in response to my challenge has been deafening.

Ziggy: “I would challenge *any* KJVO defender to show *where* and *when* during the *entire* period from Tyndale through the mid-19th century that ANYONE -- scholar, preacher, commentator, Bible teacher, uneducated layperson, etc.-- EVER claimed that "Easter" in Ac 12:4 meant some supposed "pagan festival" worshipping the Babylonian godess Ishtar, and that Herod was in fact a pagan worshipper of that goddess.”

However, the challenge is now *updated*, since I now have finished some preliminary research in order to eliminate one or two earlier KJVO writers whom I thought *may* have made this assertion:

The challenge is now *updated* to include the entire period from Tyndale through the mid-*20th* century -- in fact at least until 1960 (should make it easier, right?) .

Bottom line: the KJVO myth to justify “Easter” in Ac 12:4, claiming that Herod was observing a pagan festival was invented out of whole cloth *only* at some point after 1960, after the rise of the modern KJVO movement. If you don’t think so, KJVOs, then prove me wrong.

 

Please read the entire chapter of John 13 through John 18. Then read Luke 22.


You might really want to contemplate WHAT EXACTLY PASSOVER IS. By your above comments, you are saying that Jesus Christ is NOT THE PASSOVER LAMB.

Matthew 26

1. And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2. Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

.....

14. Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15. And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
17. Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
18. And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
20. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23. And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
26. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28. For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
32. But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
33. Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

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15. Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.


Mark 14

10. And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.
11. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.
12. And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
13. And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
14. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15. And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
16. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19. And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20. And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

....

6. Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.


Luke 22

1. Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
2. And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3. Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6. And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
7. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10. And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
11. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12. And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16. For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Luke 23

13. And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,
14. Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:
15. No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.
16. I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
17. (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)


John 13

1. Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
2. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
3. Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
4. He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.


.....


21. When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22. Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26. Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.


John 18

1. When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
2. And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

.....

27. Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
28. Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

...

39. But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

John 19

14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17. And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18. Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
19. And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.


Exodus 12

5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.
12. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
15. Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16. And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
17. And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
18. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
19. Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
20. Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.
21. Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
22. And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
23. For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
24. And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
25. And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the Lord will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
26. And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
27. That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, instead of posting long excerpts of scripture, please just post the the reference and your point. Your long excerpts prove nothing, and your accusations are getting more and more off the wall. I don't think that he's saying Christ isn't the passover lamb. Please prove where he says such.

AVL1984