Featured Paul and the Dispensation of Grace

...which I am not.

Wrong. There's not a sin listed in The Book that any of us are not capable of committing, and that includes the sin of unbelief and making shipwreck of the faith:

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

Those Hebrews Christians (made partakers of the Holy Spirit) that fell away back to the apostate religion that crucified the Lord crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh in doing so.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

Those Hebrews Christians (sanctified by the blood of the covenant) that fell away back to the apostate religion that crucified the Lord had nothing but the expectation of judgment that was [soon] to come upon those adversaries that had crucified the Lord.

 

You understand that Moses and Aaron also 'entered not in because of unbelief', right?

 

IMHO!... Hasn't change much has it?... Brother Glen

Numbers 20:10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

 

And Jehovah said unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed not in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them. Nu 20:12

 

Seems as though you are.

You are teaching that born again believers can lose their salvation. Hence...you are among the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teacherse). Could be, though, through your misunderstanding, you could be among the L.O.S.Ers. (loss of salvation embracers).

Wrong?

It is quite clear:


Hebrews 3:18-19

King James Version (KJV)

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


The writer does not include those who are not guilty of what he is warning, being faithless and of unbelief. We who have believed do enter rest, those of unbelief...do not. The first quote makes it clear...they were unbelievers.

And as I said, the L.O.S.T. always make unbelievers believers so they can teach their false doctrine. I am sure it is not intentional, it just shows the misunderstanding they have of the Book of Hebrews.


The second quote makes it clear they heard the Word of God and had no faith. And that is evident in the account itself. Here you have people wanting to return to Egypt, making idols...and you count them as believers. They were not believers of the Word they received...much less believers in Christ. We have to make that distinction as well. The Children of Israel in the Wilderness did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they had the Gospel preached to them at that time, which can also be seen in the account. This involved relationship with God through the Covenant of Law, and the "rest" in view for them is contrasted with the Rest given in Christ.

Two entirely different rests. One is physical, the other spiritual and eternal.

So was Moses. So was David. So were the disciples as they went about preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, healing, and casting out demons.

That includes Judas, by the way.

Every man will partake of the Holy Spirit as they are ministered to, and through by Him. This is the ministry of the Comforter, a ministry that changed from external and temporary in the Old Testament to internal and eternal under the New Covenant.

And how did they do that?

By offering up the sacrifices that the writer makes clear were only a parable given for that time. They were not meant to bring atonement in completion, something else the writer conveys to the reader/hearer.

First, note that the writer contrasts the Covenant of Law with the New Covenant. He is saying "The punishment for rejecting that Covenant was bad, but the punishment for rejecting the New is even worse.

Even in the quotation it is made clear that unbelievers are in view:


Deuteronomy 32:31-37

King James Version (KJV)

31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Now let's back up and see these "believers:"


Deuteronomy 32

King James Version (KJV)

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?


16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.



Nuff said?

And I will just throw in for free Peter's quotation...


2 Peter 2:1

King James Version (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


And what does Peter do? He equates those in view in this chapter with the false prophets of the quote...


Deuteronomy 32

King James Version (KJV)

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?


Again, you are making unbelievers...believers, in order to teach the L.O.S.T., when for the time...ye ought to be teaching the lost.


Continued...

 

Christ is in view, not believers. This is what the writer states about the sanctification of believers:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


What this means that in regards to remission of sins, which is the context here (note the contrast between Christ and Levitical Service), that those sanctified are forgiven in completion (see vv.1-4 where this is contrasted with the blood of bulls and goats, which cannot take away sins (in completion))...

...for ever.

Your abuse of the text creates a conflict and contradiction which is not in the text, only in your understanding.

Agreed.

But, what you cannot do is show these people to be born again believers.

They have rejected the Ministry of the Comforter:


Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Again, while the Spirit of God has always ministered in the hearts of men, this does not equate to regeneration.


Acts 7:51

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


Every passage of the L.O.S.T. and the L.O.S.Ers. has to make unbelievers into believers before they can teach their doctrine. But if we keep the context we will see that, especially in Hebrews, in view is an exhortation to embrace Christ under the New Covenant, and to progress from the Covenant of Law unto the New, as He makes clear in another favorite passage of the L.O.S.T.:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Until the L.O.S.T. understand the perfection/completion we have in Christ, they will never understand the Security of the Believer...the true believer, not unbelievers they ascribe salvation to.

The Covenant of Law was foundational to the promises of God to Israel and the world. When those who rejected the New Covenant offered up sacrifice again...they were, in figure, crucifying Christ again. We know it is figurative because Christ had to die...only once.


Hebrews 9:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


See the link. In view is the shedding of blood for atonement, and it was a parable.


God bless.

 

That is correct, however, we make a distinction between the "rest" that was available to them as opposed to the "Rest" we have in Christ, which was not available to them.

Moses and Aaron did not enter into that "rest" (the Land) because of their disobedience.

They were made perfect only after Christ came and made, not atonement, as they did, but the Atonement:


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 12:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,



Every person of faith listed in Hebrews 11 died in faith not being perfected, and not receiving the promises:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



No man comes into God's presence apart from the Atonement/Reconciliation.

Just because Moses and Aaron did not receive the available rest through disobedience, that does not mean they were lost. But they were not regenerate believers in Christ. Their salvation was temporal (i.e., redemption from Egypt, entrance into the land where they could rest from their enemies), not eternal.

They would have to wait, like everyone else, for Christ to die for their sins, that their transgressions might be redeemed, they made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, and entrance to the Holiest of All:


Hebrews 9:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


I would just ask that instead of jumping to other proof texts you deal with the Scripture provided already, and the context in which they are given, If you can show I have the context wrong then perhaps you might be able to confirm the L.O.S.T.


God bless.

 

"Because ye believed not in me..."

Again, the example the writer of Hebrews gives is unbelief versus belief, not belief turned to unbelief:


Hebrews 3:6-12

King James Version (KJV)

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.



17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.



Not believers losing their salvation, but unbelievers not entering into the "rest" available to them at the time.

But we have entered into Rest. That should be cause for joy.

And we have to ask, why would someone not want to believe they have not entered into the Rest of Christ?


God bless.

 

I agree with you, Darrell.

John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

The L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) will not directly respond to the positive statement of the Word of God which makes it clear that salvation is eternal, but have to impose a condition of belief on unbelievers to support their doctrine.

And the L.O.S.Eers. (loss of salvation embracers) lap it up.

Have to question that.


God bless.

 

No, I am reasoning on the same plane as 1 Cor 5:5.

So what is it that you imagine 'His rest' to signify? Eternity in heaven?

No, I count them as REDEEMED with a strong hand from the House of Bondage.

There was an entire generation of His, redeemed from the House of Bondage, who rejected His gospel command to go in and possess the Promised Land, who became 'children of His wrath', condemned to wander lost in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives.

Yet even after all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

AND, throughout all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always even though He granted them no repentance to enter into His Rest. They wandered in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives when they could have spent it in the Land of Milk & Honey had they only believed that it was their's for the taking.

 

Sorry, no, you are teaching loss of salvation. Your denial of this shows you are not willing to be honest with yourself.


1 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


You are both ignoring the Scripture provided as well as the context of the passages, as well as the context you impose on them.

Look, I am actually glad at your attempt to backpedal, but you cannot deny imposing a context of believing onto those clearly shown to be unbelievers.

Exactly what the Writer of Hebrews "imagines" it, lol...

...eternal redemption.


Hebrews 9:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, you need to understand the contrasts the Writer makes between the Two Covenants and what they afforded believers. The rest promised to Israel in that day was temporal, not Heavenly. The land was the rest, whereas in Christ "rest" is from works...


Hebrews 4:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.


8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.



"There remaineth a rest for the people of God" refers to the fact that Joshua did not give them rest in completion when he brought them into the land. And He is saying to his brethren "Hey guys...that's not he rest the Lord promised alone."


The whole point is that like as those in the wilderness did not enter into that rest, even so those of unbelief will not enter into the rest provided in Christ.

The People of God here is Israel, not Christians (v.8-9).

He is speaking of his brethren, the Hebrews.

Great. Now equate that with Redemption in Christ.

And...


Hebrews 3:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


And the Scriptures cannot be broken.

Doesn't change Biblical truth:



Hebrews 3:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Just think about what you are arguing for: that the Children of Israel were saved.

Read John 6. There you will find that despite receiving manna, clothes, healthcare, et cetera...these were all physical blessings.

That is why Christ is the True Bread, as He contrasts manna with Himself.

You are equating the provision of the Wilderness and the Land with the reality of God's promises provided by Christ alone.


God bless.

 

So the promised land was really heaven?

And Moses was in hall of fame faith chapter in Hebrews, and yet lose his salvation?

Samson kept his also, correct?

 

His point, I believe, was that unbelief was ascribed to Moses and Aaron, which is how he seeks to maintain a view that the passages he uses to teach loss of salvation refer to believers.

He is seeking to nullify the context of Hebrews and make believers out of unbelievers.


God bless.

 

IF keeping salvation is based up what I must do to maintain it, then what hope would any of us who have not yet obtained the sinless perfection state have here?

 

You are dishonestly misrepresenting me.

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

I maintain that those 'falling away' in Hebrews found themselves exactly in this state, with the exception that there was to be no repentance to be granted to them for doing so.

 

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

I've meditated on it much over the years. The type is profound. Christ our Passover hath been sacrificed. Our sins are covered. His righteousness has been imputed to us.

 

The writer though clearly stated to us that those who have fallen away were never one of us, as John also pointed out to us!

as the author was confident that the really saved would endure unto the end!

They are also like the ones peter told us would return back to their own vomit, as wwere never really saved!

 

Those were false teachers. These in Hebrews were made partakers of the Spirit and sanctified by the blood of the covenant; it is specifically stated, "THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE!

 

Except that they were ONLY professors of having Jesus as messiah, as they turned back to Old Covenant abd Temple, so proved they wwere not really one of His!