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Featured Pauline Doctrine not Calvanism nor Arminianism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If one holds to Calvinism the slide to Gnosticism will eventually come into play.
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How so?
     
  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    It must. What a person believes regarding this fundamental issue taints all else.
     
  4. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    If Christ died to provide the possibility of salvation, yet billions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel, He is incompetent, unjust, or both.

    No, Christ died for those who were given to Him by the Father. Not those who loved Him first, but those who were His enemies. Not for those who would choose Him but for the scoffers; not for the heathy, but the sick; not for the righteous but for sinners - for a wretch like me.
     
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  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Then your view on Acts 19:1
    And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    Is?

    When were they saved? They hadn't heard of Jesus they believed there was one coming. Were they saved, when they came believing on the one coming spoken of by John or at this point when Paul told them about Jesus. What about Abraham.

    Who did Christ die for?
    Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Here we see for the ungodly.
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    He died for sinners.
    1 John 2:2 (Mounce) He is the propitiation for · our sins, and not for · ours only, but also for those of the entire world.
    He died to be the Propitiation for sin whose sin those who believe and those of the entire world.
    Romans 14:9 (Mounce)For the reason why Christ died and rose to life again was that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
    Died for those who are dead, we know the physically dead cannot trust in Christ, but for those who are Spiritually Dead He died.
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
    Psalms 92:1 It is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord, and to sing praises unto thy name, O Most High:
    So I s giving thanks to God a good thing if you haven't Believed on the christ?
     
  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The Great Spirit, the Living God sent rain!
     
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So did Abel believe on the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Hebrews 11: 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. What did Abel believe and why did he offer a blood sacrifice? Who was his FaIth in? He believed in a coming Savior and offered a blood sacrifice to prove His faith in a coming sacrifice. What of Enoch, he pleased God, but How? Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.Genesis 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
    He walked with God, that is He had the same walk we as believers today are to have, a walk of Faith. He believed a Savior was coming as God had promised, genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    The seed of woman the savior is what their faith was in. A savior who would defeat satan that old serpent. what did Abraham believe that was counted unto Him for Righteousness? Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Why did He find Grace not because he was good, but because He believed, Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Seems he believed God would provide a Savior according to some on here that say they didn't hear the Gospel of Jesus then neither did these know the Gospel of Jesus, but they believed in a coming savior.

    What of the scattering in Genesis 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

    Where did they go? Over the face of the Earth, wouldn't that include the Peruvians, The American Indians and the tribes of uncharted islands? Now how many of the scattered were believers in a coming savior? This was many Generations before Abraham came on the scene. Way before Moses wrote the Pentateuch, yet many had to be believers. we know of Job and his friends who weren't descendants of Abraham, they were believers, in fact they most likely lived at the same time as Abraham. What did they believe, a savior was coming, not one heard what we hear in the Gospel of Christ yet they were saved and are in Heaven today.

    So how many in the dispersion were saved? How many were scattered over the face of the earth as believers? We don't know but there would have been some in every group for God's gospel to be preached. If anyone today believes as they did in a savior coming and haven't heard of Jesus cant hey like these be saved?
     
  9. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
    Jesus came for sinners.
     
  10. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21
    Who did the prophecy come to? Just he Jew? Did Christ Prophesy to Adam and Eve? Did Enoch and Noah prophesy? Holy men Abel, Enoch and Noah all prophesied. Noah for over 100 years. Why wouldn't those after the flood who were dispersed have believers mingled in all?
     
  11. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yes. I know that, and said that in my post.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus death provide the secured and sure salvation of those whom the Father intended for it to!
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This describes all of your posts. You with your excessive hubris think nothing of attacking God called elders, the truth of scripture, and the confessional faith.
    Do you offer anything edifying??? if so...where is it?
    Pastor Bob and Rev Mac, Jon at least man up and engage the posters.
    If you disagree, fine...post it...do not hide like a turtle as soon as anyone answers you
     
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  14. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I think your post was well written and I agree in large part with it. Allow me to offer further evidence towards the notion that Paul was neither Calvinistic or Armenianistic, but both of these doctrinal systems ignore the truth.

    I think both Calvin and Arminius were wrong because they both made the same fatally flawed assumption; they both assumed that salvation was a direct result of faith. Neither of them realized that this was only true for Abraham, and that the rest of us are saved by our faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ qualifying us as an adopted descendant of Abraham and therefore an heir of Christ's righteousness which was exchanged 1:1 between Jesus and Abraham.

    If salvation were direct, then our faith would cause regeneration. However, salvation is indirect because our faith causes human adoption. Christ’s righteousness was exchanged with Abraham, then, as sons of Abraham, the second step is we inherit Christ's righteousness according to God’s promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the righteousness. Therefore, we see salvation is indirect. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration. In fact, God commands us to make the choice of salvation, and God says it is a choice every human being is capable of making. This command is given three times in Deuteronomy 30, and each time God re-iterates that it is a human choice – a choice set before us. Moreover, God states unequivocally that it is a human choice, and not a choice made in heaven in verses 11-12.


    Deuteronomy 30:1
    So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

    Deuteronomy 30:6
    Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

    Deuteronomy 30:11
    For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?


    Deuteronomy 30:15
    See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,


    This human choice comes before regeneration. I don’t think completely free will is Biblical. I think it’s clear that, as it pertains to Salvation, God gives human beings a distinct, binary choice. Choose life or choose death. It does nothing to damage the sovereignty of God to command humans to choose between two options. For example, if I told my child “you can have pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast… but FYI, the pancakes are awesome,” I don’t lose my sovereignty over breakfast. My child cannot, for example, choose steak and eggs. So who determines breakfast – me or my child? I would say I have determined breakfast, and not my child because I have the ingredients for only those two choices. However, so has my child played a role. So who determines salvation – man or God? Yes! Man and God both play a role, but ultimately, we cannot make choices outside of the limited scope God gives us.

    Joshua 24:22
    Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

    Romans 8:16
    The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


    Deuteronomy 19:15
    A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses, a matter shall be confirmed.

    As Romans 8:16-17 shows, both God’s spirit and our own spirit must play a role in salvation, just as Deuteronomy 30:19 says God calls heaven and earth as co-witnesses of the choice we make for salvation. One last point I’ll make about Total Depravity is that the Bible says The Law is good. The Bible also says that God has written His law on our hearts, and on the hearts of unbelievers, so that all are without excuse. We cannot be completely and entirely depraved if we have God’s good law written on our hearts so that we know the difference between good and evil. In fact, the very first sin was partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.​

    Romans 2:14
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    So I agree that neither Calvinism nor the teachings of Jacobus Arminius are accurate. This is probably why the argument between the two sides has perpetuated without end for so long, being unresolvable because both are fundamentally wrong about how salvation works.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sin natures cannot choose to get saved, as they are enemies of God and desire will be to stay in the dark!
     
  16. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    If this were true, then Adam - who did not have a sin nature before the fall - would have been unable to sin and bring death into the world. But clearly, we are able, as human beings, to operate outside of our nature.

    Of course, Adam partook of the "tree of knowledge of Good and Evil." This means Adam (and subsequently us) knows both good and evil. Therefore we are able to choose.

    This argument assumes that sinful people cannot do good. Clearly, this is false. Sinful people are capable and do good things all the time, and saved, redeemed people do evil things all the time. This is because as a result of Adam's fall we have the knowledge of good and evil, just as Paul states:

    Rom 2:14
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You misunderstand Calvinism, for we hold that sinners can do and do do good works and deeds, can love others, but that they cannot in and by themselves will themselves to believe unto Jesus, nor even desire to have Him save them!
    Adam was created without a sin nature, but still had in him the possibility to sin, unlike our Lord Jesus, who being in nature very God, could never sin!
     
  18. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    What knowledge of Jesus did Abraham have when he was made righteous for his faith? Only the very narrowest of an idea of what Jesus would do - the scripture says God preached the gospel to him when He said "in you the nations of the earth will be blessed." This was enough of "the gospel" for Abraham to be made righteous for believing. Abraham didn't even know Jesus' name.

    People believe stupid things... people believe crazy things... people believe ridiculous things. It doesn't require regeneration to believe anything. Anyone can believe the gospel. It's simple, and encouraging. Regeneration is irrelevant to belief. And belief is irrelevant to regeneration except that it merely qualifies you for human adoption. Once you are adopted as a child of Abraham (for merely believing the truth about the same person - Jesus - that Abraham believed God's report on), you qualify for the inheritance of regeneration by birthright.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No regeneration, no belief in jesus to get saved!
     
  20. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Regeneration isn't necessary for belief ... and comes AFTER.

    Eph 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

    Notice it says "after" and "believed" is in the past tense? The scripture is clear - partial regeneration (regeneration of the spirit) comes AFTER faith, not before it. We are not fully regenerated (body soul & spirit) until the resurrection. Therefore, salvation is for the unregenerate.
     
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