Paul's Election

Rom 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen (eklektos) in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

 

Sorry Dan, Just realised I went off topic there.... that you were posting about Pauls election and I went and posted on Paul mentioning the election of Rufus. D'oh

 

Sounds on topic to me.

 

Me too. I don't know why, other than for some minute part in his graet plan. All glory to him.

 

Did you all receive private and/or 2nd party communications from God concerning your personal election or is it a case of "if wishes were horses then beggers would ride?"

 

Billwald, try your best not to give up the day job. Comedy is surely not an attribute of yours

Would you argue against the saved being Gods elect?

 

Good Post Billwald!

Selective Election is proveable, General election is not!

 

Good Post Billwald!

Selective Election is proveable, General election is not! </font>[/QUOTE]So west, you do believe in selective election then?

 

My thoughts exactly Dan

 

Good Post Billwald!

Selective Election is proveable, General election is not! </font>[/QUOTE]So west, you do believe in selective election then? </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely, I have posted that all along, don't you even read my posts?

I have often posted John 17 as evidence of selective election! I agree and have oft stated that Paul is an elect of God, and that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ruth, etc, etc, are ALL selectively elected of God to be examples of FAITH. The Pharoah, Herod, Pontius Pilate, Caiaphas, Eli, Eli's house, etc, are God's elected examples of unfaithfulness and wickedness to show us what not to do and how not to be. Judas was an elect of God for a specific purpose! How many others betrayed the Christ in fulfillment of Prophesy?

However, the general population of the world is not divided by "elect" and "non-elect", and Calvinism teaches they are! That is why I oppose Calvinism's doctrine of Election!

 

So Wes if God draws all man because it is His will that all come to him and not just an elect, then how do you reconcile this verse to he idea of a God whos will is fulfilled only if we help Him out.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

What is your take on that, just so I know.
Then when reading Romans 9, I can't see how you get the impression that Gods will is in accordance with man helping him out.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I havent read all your posts Wes because I haven't had time to read everything so can you tell me your take on Romans 9.

 

Here's a quick synopsis of Wes's theology...

Everywhere in the NT where it is talking about the "elect" is is referring to the "12 apostles" because Jesus prayed specifically for them in John 17.. so it follows (in his mind) that you can logically infer that in Rom 8, John 6, Eph 1 is ALL about "just the 12" .... uff dah !!

 

Do you guys remember that the nation Israel was God's elect? Even called "the apple of His eye"? Are they "elect" any longer? Take a close look at Romans 11:17-22etc

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Do you understand what you read here? If Israel, who were once the chosen people of God, because of their unbelief, were "cut off", how much more the "elect" in the Church suffer the same. See the warning especially in verses 20 and 21.

What do you think this refers to, if not being cut off from fellowship with God, and therefore forfeiting eternal life? Honest answers please.

 

The elect wern't cut off though. Verses 2-6 make that clear that those he foreknew, he didn't cut off.
Verse 7 says that the ones who were hardened were the others. Who were the others?

Paul makes it clear that God saved him so surely God hadn't rejected all Jews. If Grace is grace then it isn't of works. Also, verses 6-10 make it clear that it was in accordance with Gods word that some were hardened. The elect obtained what Israel sought after...some were hardened, the elect wern't. I don't see how the elect were cut off. Also, looking at verse 11, I don't see the rejection as a finality, but something done in order that the gentiles might believe.

 

Are you then saying that Israel is still a people of God?

 

Who do you think these words refer to, if not the elect?

"Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee"

 

But why were they broken off? Because of their unbelief. True he did cast off the nation, but his true elect, the ones who believe, whether jew or gentile, have not been cast off. I'm not saying the nation of israel itself is still a people of God, but the elect.
Just like when God reserved himself a remnant who had not bowed the knee to baal.

I see a definete distinction between the nation of Israel who God cast off (be it for mercy reasons toward the gentiles aswell as their unbelief) and the special remnant of believeing Jews.